Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:03:05 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/28/2002 10:49 PM
In the Week Two assignment, we run into what seems to be a contradiction. From reading the responses of Iarwain to the "Young" Saruman post, I see that he seems game for debating the contradiction ... .
In Book III, Chapter 5 of the trilogy ('The White Rider'), Gandalf states that Treebeard is "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon Middle-earth." Does this seem to be an accurate statement? What of Bombadil? I assume that Gandalf is excluding himself, the Wizards, and Sauron due to their 'immigration' ... does this indicate that maybe Bombadil came from Aman as well?
Your thoughts?
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 10/29/2002 6:00 AM
I interpret Gandalf's words to mean that Treebeard is the oldest rational being in Middle Earth who is of Middle Earth. Others may be older, but they are from outside Middle Earth.
Selmo,
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:10 PM
If Tom Bombadil is right about this, then he's the Oldest. From FotR (sorry!), "In the House of Tom Bombadil," about the 3rd page before the end of the chapter, Tom tells the hobbits:
I am old. Eldest, thats what I am. Mark my words, my friends:
Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the
first raindrop and the first acorn.
Diana
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 11/4/2002 8:31 PM
Well not knowing Tolkien's true intenet, and yet knowing there are errors and faux pas within the tales. I am inclined to believe that this is what the question truely is. Is this a Tolkien error? Or is it an intentional wording slight of hand?
Tom Bombadil claims to be "Eldest" but he never expresses eldest what! What I have always assumed is that Bombadil is a "spirit" outside of Middle-earth with a tangable form within it. Where Treebeard is a spirit and form within Middle-earth. I know this sounds bit confusing, but if we recall the Silmarillion, and the Void it mentions, we see a place apart from Middle-earth not subject to the passing of time.
This goes back to why Tom is unaffected by the Ring, although his physical form is bound to Middle-earth, his spirit form is of the Void, and therefore not subject to Eru's rules.
This is of course one way to look at it.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/19/2002 10:20 PM
I have read that Tom represents disappearing country or nature... Iawnin Ben-adar I am sure your board help here) or something like that. I think he has always existed, but not as a living being. Has he manifested himself looking flesh and blood and he doesn't count as (I see what Iawain Ben-adar is getting at). as is a living and breathing entity... Tom is a spirit. So technically Tom doesn't count as the oldest living creature. Selmo - I agree that Gandalf is only talking about those that live in ME. Although the Elves awoke the Ents, it is likely that they existed before the elves that currently live in ME. I feel great about the statement of Treebeard being the eldest living thing in ME. Great discussion - I could not have come up with my understanding without all of the experts here.
Luthien (Sarah)
In the Week Two assignment, we run into what seems to be a contradiction. From reading the responses of Iarwain to the "Young" Saruman post, I see that he seems game for debating the contradiction ... .
In Book III, Chapter 5 of the trilogy ('The White Rider'), Gandalf states that Treebeard is "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon Middle-earth." Does this seem to be an accurate statement? What of Bombadil? I assume that Gandalf is excluding himself, the Wizards, and Sauron due to their 'immigration' ... does this indicate that maybe Bombadil came from Aman as well?
Your thoughts?
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 10/29/2002 6:00 AM
I interpret Gandalf's words to mean that Treebeard is the oldest rational being in Middle Earth who is of Middle Earth. Others may be older, but they are from outside Middle Earth.
Selmo,
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:10 PM
If Tom Bombadil is right about this, then he's the Oldest. From FotR (sorry!), "In the House of Tom Bombadil," about the 3rd page before the end of the chapter, Tom tells the hobbits:
I am old. Eldest, thats what I am. Mark my words, my friends:
Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the
first raindrop and the first acorn.
Diana
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 11/4/2002 8:31 PM
Well not knowing Tolkien's true intenet, and yet knowing there are errors and faux pas within the tales. I am inclined to believe that this is what the question truely is. Is this a Tolkien error? Or is it an intentional wording slight of hand?
Tom Bombadil claims to be "Eldest" but he never expresses eldest what! What I have always assumed is that Bombadil is a "spirit" outside of Middle-earth with a tangable form within it. Where Treebeard is a spirit and form within Middle-earth. I know this sounds bit confusing, but if we recall the Silmarillion, and the Void it mentions, we see a place apart from Middle-earth not subject to the passing of time.
This goes back to why Tom is unaffected by the Ring, although his physical form is bound to Middle-earth, his spirit form is of the Void, and therefore not subject to Eru's rules.
This is of course one way to look at it.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/19/2002 10:20 PM
I have read that Tom represents disappearing country or nature... Iawnin Ben-adar I am sure your board help here) or something like that. I think he has always existed, but not as a living being. Has he manifested himself looking flesh and blood and he doesn't count as (I see what Iawain Ben-adar is getting at). as is a living and breathing entity... Tom is a spirit. So technically Tom doesn't count as the oldest living creature. Selmo - I agree that Gandalf is only talking about those that live in ME. Although the Elves awoke the Ents, it is likely that they existed before the elves that currently live in ME. I feel great about the statement of Treebeard being the eldest living thing in ME. Great discussion - I could not have come up with my understanding without all of the experts here.
Luthien (Sarah)