Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:06:41 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/28/2002 9:06 AM
Why does Treebeard refer to Saruman as being young?
Obviously, Saruman was a living entity before the time of Treebeard's creation so I would imagine the use of "Young" from Treebeard's point of view would be incorrect. Or is it? Tolkien was a philologist and the use of words was his expertise. Although this reference seems a little thing, I imagine that from Tolkien's viewpoint, it carried some meaning.
What are your thoughts?
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/28/2002 8:15 PM
I will have to do some research, but I feel almost certain that Treebeard does not mention Aman in his ramblings. His knowlege is absolute and exclusive within Middle-Earth, and things not apart of his world don't exist until they are encountered by him. (The Hobbit's and the list) Hence he was here before Saurman therefore Saurman is young as compared to him. I wonder how this line of thinking would work with Bombadil however so I'll look into Treebeards statements, and see if there are more clues.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 3:56 AM
Treebeard was in Middle-earth before even the Elves; before the First Age. While the Istari are Maiar and obviously existed before M-e was created, they didn't arrive in M-e until around 1000 TA. So Treebeard wouldn't have known about Saruman until then, even though Saruman, probably in spirit 'form,' had been around for thousands of years.
Diana
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/29/2002 1:40 PM
Wasn't Treebeard, or actually the Ents, created by one of the Valar, in order to have an entity to protect the trees and plants for the Men, who were cutting down the trees in order to make room for them, and build houses and other dwellings? I believe I read something about this in the Silmarillion, it could have been Yevanna, I thought she was the one who went about the flora of Middle Earth. The Ents were created after the creation of the Dwarfs, with permission of Illúvatar, way before the Istari ever came to ME. I'd wish I'd already bought my copy of the Silmarillion, so that I could look it up right now, but unfortunately this poor student has to save her money for now. So anyone who has The Silmarillion in his or her possession, it may be worth to look this up. I am anxious to know whether I am right or not, so I am definitely passing by the library tomorrow to check (I hope it is there!). Thanks anyway!
Greetings,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 3:53 PM
Lara, the Ents were in Middle-earth even before the elves, never mind Men. Maybe you're thinking of something else?
Diana
* * *
From: Alucard Redtooth Sent: 10/30/2002 12:32 AM
Er...
The Ents were created in reaction to the *creation* of the Dwarves. Yavanna saw from the attributes they were being given that they could possibly destroy the woodlands. That's when she made the elves.
~~
And about Tom, that's something I've been wondering about. It's possible that Treebeard doesn't know about Tom, but Gandalf does, and he still tells Theoden that Treebeard is the oldest of all living things. Eh? The only idea I can come up with is that Tom isn't alive like other things. He's sort of analogous to the Celtic Green Man, nearly just a personification of the living world.
Or something like that. ^_^
* * *
From: Alucard Redtooth Sent: 10/30/2002 12:34 AM
Oh yeah... Both the dwarves and the ents were created, and then put into 'storage,' I suppose, until both elves and men were upon Ea. (earth)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/18/2002 11:14 PM
I don't think that is what Treebeard meant Saruman was young as in "age" but in maturity... "lacking experience; immature" Treebeard has many conversations with Saruman. Perhaps Saruman was "posing" as lacking experience. Or because Treebeard was the one giving "wisdom and knowledge" he looked upon Saruman as lacking experience or immature. Or it may be partly both... What do you all think?
Luthien (Sarah)
Why does Treebeard refer to Saruman as being young?
Obviously, Saruman was a living entity before the time of Treebeard's creation so I would imagine the use of "Young" from Treebeard's point of view would be incorrect. Or is it? Tolkien was a philologist and the use of words was his expertise. Although this reference seems a little thing, I imagine that from Tolkien's viewpoint, it carried some meaning.
What are your thoughts?
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/28/2002 8:15 PM
I will have to do some research, but I feel almost certain that Treebeard does not mention Aman in his ramblings. His knowlege is absolute and exclusive within Middle-Earth, and things not apart of his world don't exist until they are encountered by him. (The Hobbit's and the list) Hence he was here before Saurman therefore Saurman is young as compared to him. I wonder how this line of thinking would work with Bombadil however so I'll look into Treebeards statements, and see if there are more clues.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 3:56 AM
Treebeard was in Middle-earth before even the Elves; before the First Age. While the Istari are Maiar and obviously existed before M-e was created, they didn't arrive in M-e until around 1000 TA. So Treebeard wouldn't have known about Saruman until then, even though Saruman, probably in spirit 'form,' had been around for thousands of years.
Diana
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/29/2002 1:40 PM
Wasn't Treebeard, or actually the Ents, created by one of the Valar, in order to have an entity to protect the trees and plants for the Men, who were cutting down the trees in order to make room for them, and build houses and other dwellings? I believe I read something about this in the Silmarillion, it could have been Yevanna, I thought she was the one who went about the flora of Middle Earth. The Ents were created after the creation of the Dwarfs, with permission of Illúvatar, way before the Istari ever came to ME. I'd wish I'd already bought my copy of the Silmarillion, so that I could look it up right now, but unfortunately this poor student has to save her money for now. So anyone who has The Silmarillion in his or her possession, it may be worth to look this up. I am anxious to know whether I am right or not, so I am definitely passing by the library tomorrow to check (I hope it is there!). Thanks anyway!
Greetings,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 3:53 PM
Lara, the Ents were in Middle-earth even before the elves, never mind Men. Maybe you're thinking of something else?
Diana
* * *
From: Alucard Redtooth Sent: 10/30/2002 12:32 AM
Er...
The Ents were created in reaction to the *creation* of the Dwarves. Yavanna saw from the attributes they were being given that they could possibly destroy the woodlands. That's when she made the elves.
~~
And about Tom, that's something I've been wondering about. It's possible that Treebeard doesn't know about Tom, but Gandalf does, and he still tells Theoden that Treebeard is the oldest of all living things. Eh? The only idea I can come up with is that Tom isn't alive like other things. He's sort of analogous to the Celtic Green Man, nearly just a personification of the living world.
Or something like that. ^_^
* * *
From: Alucard Redtooth Sent: 10/30/2002 12:34 AM
Oh yeah... Both the dwarves and the ents were created, and then put into 'storage,' I suppose, until both elves and men were upon Ea. (earth)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/18/2002 11:14 PM
I don't think that is what Treebeard meant Saruman was young as in "age" but in maturity... "lacking experience; immature" Treebeard has many conversations with Saruman. Perhaps Saruman was "posing" as lacking experience. Or because Treebeard was the one giving "wisdom and knowledge" he looked upon Saruman as lacking experience or immature. Or it may be partly both... What do you all think?
Luthien (Sarah)