Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 7:26:00 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2002 11:22 PM
Gimli recounts the wonders of the Caverns of Helm's Deep to Legolas. He goes on to tell how the Dwarves would care for and maintain the beauty of Aglarond through re-shaping, re-touching, delving, and lighting. Legolas is first suspect of the Dwarves intentions in Aglarond and I find myself in agreement to his initial thoughts. Is it within Dwarvish nature to tend rock gardens for nothing more than the sake of their beauty? Would the maintenance of these caverns by the Dwarves enhance the properties of this wonder or would Dwarvish lust for delving eventually destroy what nature has taken so long to build?
What are your opinions? Do the Dwarves have enough restraint to preserve this natural habitat without the eventual metamorphosis into something totally different? Who knows? Maybe by concerning ourselves with this obscure bit of trivial inquiry will help us to better understand a facet of Dwarvish behavior ... (plus ... Chapters 8 and 9 are really proving to be difficult in finding suitable discussion topics ... lol).
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:53 AM
Maybe Gimli alone would be able to conceal him. I think that he has been more influence by Legolas than he thinks so. I mean, Gimli proposes to care for the caves like the Elves care for nature, and forests. Isn't this something he could have adopted from Legolas. To me, it seems an Elvish character trait.
But, if he is going to drag other Dwarves to it, I think that in the end, they will not be able to contain theirselves. And I do not think that it would be necessary to maintain the caves at all. Nature had already done a good job, and if Dwarves are going to cut and chop, even to open up other rooms and so, they will change it eventually. How good their intentions might be, it cannot be avoided that the caves will change, if they are not left in Nature's hands.
Lara Bumbleroot
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/7/2002 3:56 PM
I tend to agree with Lara, as to Dwarves other than Gimli. As for Gimli, Galadrial gave him the gift that he would never be ruled by gold, and I think this would protect him from despoiling the Cavern's of Helm's Deep.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/7/2002 4:26 PM
I'm not so sure that Gimli himself would not have done a little bit of chiseling himself. After all, he was the one to mention that the Dwarves would "tend the glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap--a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day--so we could work, and as the years went by, we should open up new ways and display far chambers that are still dark"
I am sure that he had good intentions to keep the caverns beautiful and natural but even the best intentions can end up wrong. What of the other mountains the Dwarves mined and made Halls in? Surely they all had caverns that were beautiful and natural, too. Still the Dwarves went a head and mined them.
I would hope that Gimli would be beyond the destruction and the desire to go for the gold, but this comment of his makes me think twice about his intentions.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 11/9/2002 7:31 PM
Back when I read this conversation between Gimli and Legolas for the very first time, I did not pay much mind to it. I just assumed it was the author teaching the reader, and the other characters, more about elves and dwarves. That dwarves were people who could appreciate natural beauty of the kind that they could relate to just like elves or men.
When I read this conversation this time, I came to the same conclusion. But found a little bit more too.
Where before leaving Lothlorien, we learned about Gimli and Legolas by their differences, now we are learning about them through their similarites. Probably before, Gimli may have shared his happy discovery. Recall his tendency to boast about dwarven works like Moria. But, he would not have bothered to make them understand his deeper feelings about nature. Probably before, Legolas would still have responded with admonishment. Admonishment being an elvish tendency. But, would not have listened to Gimli's response whatever it was. Actually, it is a rather light-hearted scene, as would be between Merry and Pippin.
The scene shows that the depth of their friendship can and is growing beyond the necessity of the Quest, the affinity of the Fellowship, and the comraderie of warriors.
Redha
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 11/10/2002 8:25 PM
Algamesh,
Why sell yourself short, this is a great topic!
From what I read seems most everyone considers the Dwarvish practice of mining a negative thing. I'm not sure if your considering it from a Middle-earth view, or a modern envormentalist view. By comparing the Dwarvish works we do know, Lonely Mountain, and Moria to the completely natural Glittering Caves, I think the Dwarves would indeed cherish it. They already greatly cherish both other works to the point of whole family lines being killed off in the creation and indeed reoccupation of the said mountains. Is this not proof of passion. You should note as they delve they create art in their wake. They form stone into pillars and staircases they carve intricate patterns of beauty into the living rock. They are akin to sculptures seeing what is within the rock, not strip miners. I don't think Gimli's passion for the beauty of these caves is exclusive to him. I think all the Dwarves would experience to some degree the passion Gimli expressed to a greater or lesser percentage.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/29/2002 11:34 PM
I'd would be guessing... But a will muse a bit more...
One of the nice surprises in TTT movie was how they protrayed the Aglarond Caverns. I remembered reading glittering caves... but had not thought of them as caves of stalactites and stalagmites. I live in an area of the country were there are such glittering caves... The mineralized stalactites and stalagmites are made by the drips of water over thousands of years and are beautiful to behold. If you touch parts of them frequently they will "tarnish" and become dull. That caution is given as you enter these caves by your tour guide. I have a feeling that dwarves would have to work around these natural formations and that is why Gimli would likens the dwarves actions as "gardeners." I bet Tolkien had knowledge of crystalline caves... knowlege of some Geology... The science teacher is coming out in me...
Musings -
LovesBeren (Sarah)
Gimli recounts the wonders of the Caverns of Helm's Deep to Legolas. He goes on to tell how the Dwarves would care for and maintain the beauty of Aglarond through re-shaping, re-touching, delving, and lighting. Legolas is first suspect of the Dwarves intentions in Aglarond and I find myself in agreement to his initial thoughts. Is it within Dwarvish nature to tend rock gardens for nothing more than the sake of their beauty? Would the maintenance of these caverns by the Dwarves enhance the properties of this wonder or would Dwarvish lust for delving eventually destroy what nature has taken so long to build?
What are your opinions? Do the Dwarves have enough restraint to preserve this natural habitat without the eventual metamorphosis into something totally different? Who knows? Maybe by concerning ourselves with this obscure bit of trivial inquiry will help us to better understand a facet of Dwarvish behavior ... (plus ... Chapters 8 and 9 are really proving to be difficult in finding suitable discussion topics ... lol).
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:53 AM
Maybe Gimli alone would be able to conceal him. I think that he has been more influence by Legolas than he thinks so. I mean, Gimli proposes to care for the caves like the Elves care for nature, and forests. Isn't this something he could have adopted from Legolas. To me, it seems an Elvish character trait.
But, if he is going to drag other Dwarves to it, I think that in the end, they will not be able to contain theirselves. And I do not think that it would be necessary to maintain the caves at all. Nature had already done a good job, and if Dwarves are going to cut and chop, even to open up other rooms and so, they will change it eventually. How good their intentions might be, it cannot be avoided that the caves will change, if they are not left in Nature's hands.
Lara Bumbleroot
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/7/2002 3:56 PM
I tend to agree with Lara, as to Dwarves other than Gimli. As for Gimli, Galadrial gave him the gift that he would never be ruled by gold, and I think this would protect him from despoiling the Cavern's of Helm's Deep.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/7/2002 4:26 PM
I'm not so sure that Gimli himself would not have done a little bit of chiseling himself. After all, he was the one to mention that the Dwarves would "tend the glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap--a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day--so we could work, and as the years went by, we should open up new ways and display far chambers that are still dark"
I am sure that he had good intentions to keep the caverns beautiful and natural but even the best intentions can end up wrong. What of the other mountains the Dwarves mined and made Halls in? Surely they all had caverns that were beautiful and natural, too. Still the Dwarves went a head and mined them.
I would hope that Gimli would be beyond the destruction and the desire to go for the gold, but this comment of his makes me think twice about his intentions.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 11/9/2002 7:31 PM
Back when I read this conversation between Gimli and Legolas for the very first time, I did not pay much mind to it. I just assumed it was the author teaching the reader, and the other characters, more about elves and dwarves. That dwarves were people who could appreciate natural beauty of the kind that they could relate to just like elves or men.
When I read this conversation this time, I came to the same conclusion. But found a little bit more too.
Where before leaving Lothlorien, we learned about Gimli and Legolas by their differences, now we are learning about them through their similarites. Probably before, Gimli may have shared his happy discovery. Recall his tendency to boast about dwarven works like Moria. But, he would not have bothered to make them understand his deeper feelings about nature. Probably before, Legolas would still have responded with admonishment. Admonishment being an elvish tendency. But, would not have listened to Gimli's response whatever it was. Actually, it is a rather light-hearted scene, as would be between Merry and Pippin.
The scene shows that the depth of their friendship can and is growing beyond the necessity of the Quest, the affinity of the Fellowship, and the comraderie of warriors.
Redha
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 11/10/2002 8:25 PM
Algamesh,
Why sell yourself short, this is a great topic!
From what I read seems most everyone considers the Dwarvish practice of mining a negative thing. I'm not sure if your considering it from a Middle-earth view, or a modern envormentalist view. By comparing the Dwarvish works we do know, Lonely Mountain, and Moria to the completely natural Glittering Caves, I think the Dwarves would indeed cherish it. They already greatly cherish both other works to the point of whole family lines being killed off in the creation and indeed reoccupation of the said mountains. Is this not proof of passion. You should note as they delve they create art in their wake. They form stone into pillars and staircases they carve intricate patterns of beauty into the living rock. They are akin to sculptures seeing what is within the rock, not strip miners. I don't think Gimli's passion for the beauty of these caves is exclusive to him. I think all the Dwarves would experience to some degree the passion Gimli expressed to a greater or lesser percentage.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/29/2002 11:34 PM
I'd would be guessing... But a will muse a bit more...
One of the nice surprises in TTT movie was how they protrayed the Aglarond Caverns. I remembered reading glittering caves... but had not thought of them as caves of stalactites and stalagmites. I live in an area of the country were there are such glittering caves... The mineralized stalactites and stalagmites are made by the drips of water over thousands of years and are beautiful to behold. If you touch parts of them frequently they will "tarnish" and become dull. That caution is given as you enter these caves by your tour guide. I have a feeling that dwarves would have to work around these natural formations and that is why Gimli would likens the dwarves actions as "gardeners." I bet Tolkien had knowledge of crystalline caves... knowlege of some Geology... The science teacher is coming out in me...
Musings -
LovesBeren (Sarah)