Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 6:45:48 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2002 11:37 PM
Week Three gives us a very detailed description of Isengard. It is clearly evident that Isengard had been, for some time, a military outpost. A region perverted by technology into something grasping for a resemblance of Barad-dur. We learn how Isengard was once filled with gardens and well-marked groves. Where trees once stood we now have iron pillars, heavy chains have replaced gentle flowers, and so on. I think it is folly to assume that all the perversion of Isengard has been a recent development.
My question is how did the White Council not see this sooner; Saruman's descent into evil and decadence? it seems as though everyone had complete trust in Saruman up until the detaining of Gandalf and the open declaration of war against Isengard's neighbors. Surely it seems that the other powers of Middle-earth would have possessed the foresight to see this develop long before. How can this be explained? How does Saruman conceal fiery forges, massive gathering and quartering of troops, and the like?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:42 AM
Didn't have Saruman the power to influence other people's will? Maybe a result of this power was that he could conceal his true intentions from others, powerful though they may be. It seems unlikely of course that he could hide something that big.
On the other hand, I do think that Galadriel must have know something, or at least suspected it, because she was not content with Saruman as head of the White Counsel. If she would have had her way, Gandalf would have been the head. Maybe she already felt that Saruman would fall prey to Evil later on. And I thought that in the Fellowship, Gandalf had pointed out once that Saruman, who was studying Ring lore, changed by this. He became more arrogant, more egocentric maybe. I think that there must have been signs of Saruman's descent, but for some reason they didn't see it (because Saruman used his power to put their minds at ease?).
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/7/2002 4:00 PM
In an age where I can sit at my computer in the U.S. and communicate instantly with someone from the Netherlands, Greece or New Zealand, it is difficult to comprehend what it would be like without these resources. Limitations on communication in M.E., at least, helped Saruman conceal his activities.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/7/2002 4:16 PM
Perhaps the trees and the gardens were the last to go. They would have given cover and camoflaged all the evil changes and goings on that Saruman was up to over the years.
After Saruman had most of his changes in place and ready to implement, then he could have begun to alter the outer appearance of the grounds. Once he was deceived that what he was doing was right and he made up his mind to act as if he was going over to Sauron's side, then he would not have had to cover up the things he was doing underground.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 11/9/2002 8:19 PM
Just two quick comments to previous posts:
Gandalf would have noticed any real changes when he went to consult with Saruman and was taken prisoner. At this moment, I can't recall it being mentioned at the Council. So, there were no outward changes to Orthanc until after that time. The ents had not gotten riled up yet when Merry and Pippin arrived. So, the tree-cutting had been going on for a relatively short time for the ents who are not hasty.
Galadriel's special knowledge is limited to the scope of her power. The names of the fellowship were not known to her until they came into Lothlorien. The ring she wears does keep her clued in on the other ringbearers, including Sauron. However, she lost track of Gandalf in Moria It is within Lothlorien that she was sucessfully evading Sauron will. She mentions that the mirror can be deceptive especially about future events. Is this why she never warned anyone that the evil in Moria might be a Balrog or that it might be re-awakened soon? Note that when welcoming the fellowship, Celeborn actually expected he would get information from Haldir that Galadriel had not previously provided to him.
Redha
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/20/2002 2:06 PM
Redha wondered why Galadriel didn't warn anyone about the Balrog. It seems like Galadriel said that some things the mirror shows are what would come to pass if someone attempted to alter the course of events. Perhaps such a warning would have resulted in greater evil. After all, Gandalf's fall into the abyss made him stronger, and turns out to have been a good thing.
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 12:16 AM
Saruman's power is in his words... Graceful and convincing. He could get just about anyone to see his point of view (he'd make a great lawyer... right, my fair feathered friend?). I think ultimately it was his pride (that lead to his arrogance) that was his downfall... He thought he could resist the evil of learning the Ring lore and the seeing stone. Slowly it turned and twisted him... until his wisdom was compromised. His trick in concealing his treachery was his gift of tongue. Perhaps the signs were there... Gandalf recalled that he should have recognized those signs... As the leader of the White Council, he was able to deny knowledge and dismiss the fears they had of the Ring and the Enemy. Why he was even responsible for getting that evil out of Mirkwood (only to have it reemerge in Mordor...hmmm, is that right...). The power of his slippery tongue disguised his treachery. Down below Isengard his army was brooding and he revealled in due time. But as Tolkien writes, it was only a mockery of the evil that lay in Mordor.
No pity here however... except that any of us could ultimately fall prey to our own pride...
Musings again,
Luthien (Sarah)
Week Three gives us a very detailed description of Isengard. It is clearly evident that Isengard had been, for some time, a military outpost. A region perverted by technology into something grasping for a resemblance of Barad-dur. We learn how Isengard was once filled with gardens and well-marked groves. Where trees once stood we now have iron pillars, heavy chains have replaced gentle flowers, and so on. I think it is folly to assume that all the perversion of Isengard has been a recent development.
My question is how did the White Council not see this sooner; Saruman's descent into evil and decadence? it seems as though everyone had complete trust in Saruman up until the detaining of Gandalf and the open declaration of war against Isengard's neighbors. Surely it seems that the other powers of Middle-earth would have possessed the foresight to see this develop long before. How can this be explained? How does Saruman conceal fiery forges, massive gathering and quartering of troops, and the like?
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/7/2002 3:42 AM
Didn't have Saruman the power to influence other people's will? Maybe a result of this power was that he could conceal his true intentions from others, powerful though they may be. It seems unlikely of course that he could hide something that big.
On the other hand, I do think that Galadriel must have know something, or at least suspected it, because she was not content with Saruman as head of the White Counsel. If she would have had her way, Gandalf would have been the head. Maybe she already felt that Saruman would fall prey to Evil later on. And I thought that in the Fellowship, Gandalf had pointed out once that Saruman, who was studying Ring lore, changed by this. He became more arrogant, more egocentric maybe. I think that there must have been signs of Saruman's descent, but for some reason they didn't see it (because Saruman used his power to put their minds at ease?).
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/7/2002 4:00 PM
In an age where I can sit at my computer in the U.S. and communicate instantly with someone from the Netherlands, Greece or New Zealand, it is difficult to comprehend what it would be like without these resources. Limitations on communication in M.E., at least, helped Saruman conceal his activities.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/7/2002 4:16 PM
Perhaps the trees and the gardens were the last to go. They would have given cover and camoflaged all the evil changes and goings on that Saruman was up to over the years.
After Saruman had most of his changes in place and ready to implement, then he could have begun to alter the outer appearance of the grounds. Once he was deceived that what he was doing was right and he made up his mind to act as if he was going over to Sauron's side, then he would not have had to cover up the things he was doing underground.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 11/9/2002 8:19 PM
Just two quick comments to previous posts:
Gandalf would have noticed any real changes when he went to consult with Saruman and was taken prisoner. At this moment, I can't recall it being mentioned at the Council. So, there were no outward changes to Orthanc until after that time. The ents had not gotten riled up yet when Merry and Pippin arrived. So, the tree-cutting had been going on for a relatively short time for the ents who are not hasty.
Galadriel's special knowledge is limited to the scope of her power. The names of the fellowship were not known to her until they came into Lothlorien. The ring she wears does keep her clued in on the other ringbearers, including Sauron. However, she lost track of Gandalf in Moria It is within Lothlorien that she was sucessfully evading Sauron will. She mentions that the mirror can be deceptive especially about future events. Is this why she never warned anyone that the evil in Moria might be a Balrog or that it might be re-awakened soon? Note that when welcoming the fellowship, Celeborn actually expected he would get information from Haldir that Galadriel had not previously provided to him.
Redha
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/20/2002 2:06 PM
Redha wondered why Galadriel didn't warn anyone about the Balrog. It seems like Galadriel said that some things the mirror shows are what would come to pass if someone attempted to alter the course of events. Perhaps such a warning would have resulted in greater evil. After all, Gandalf's fall into the abyss made him stronger, and turns out to have been a good thing.
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 12:16 AM
Saruman's power is in his words... Graceful and convincing. He could get just about anyone to see his point of view (he'd make a great lawyer... right, my fair feathered friend?). I think ultimately it was his pride (that lead to his arrogance) that was his downfall... He thought he could resist the evil of learning the Ring lore and the seeing stone. Slowly it turned and twisted him... until his wisdom was compromised. His trick in concealing his treachery was his gift of tongue. Perhaps the signs were there... Gandalf recalled that he should have recognized those signs... As the leader of the White Council, he was able to deny knowledge and dismiss the fears they had of the Ring and the Enemy. Why he was even responsible for getting that evil out of Mirkwood (only to have it reemerge in Mordor...hmmm, is that right...). The power of his slippery tongue disguised his treachery. Down below Isengard his army was brooding and he revealled in due time. But as Tolkien writes, it was only a mockery of the evil that lay in Mordor.
No pity here however... except that any of us could ultimately fall prey to our own pride...
Musings again,
Luthien (Sarah)