Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 6:51:42 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/6/2002 8:37 PM
It may be a bit surprising to learn that the fortress of Helm's Deep was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age and not by the Rohirrim. Much like the Argonath, it always amazes me how far the "Sea People" of Numenor built and occupied around the countryside of Middle-earth. Looking at the maps in LOTR, you can surmise the great distances that the Numenoreans must have traveled inland and occupied, if maybe only for a short while.
Thinking about the fortress of Helm's Deep during the days of it's infancy, what do you think it's purpose was for the Numenoreans? Considering it's architecture and geographical location, who were the immediate foes or what were they attempting to protect at that time in Middle-earth's history? I think to truly understand something, we must know the purpose for it's creation and continued existence. Let's flesh that out here for the ancient fastness that is known as Helm's Deep.
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 11/27/2002 4:38 AM
Since noone is answering this post, I’m giving it a try. But first I want to point out I don’t know much about the Numenors. I’m just a young hobbit, ignorant of the history of the world we all live in (but I do know a lot of my own family-history ). This is one of these moments I wish I had read the Silmarillion. I’ll soon will, but until than you’ll have to forgive the mistakes I might make in my thinking.
I’ve learned recently (thanks to Lara) that the Numenorean Realm layed in a land which is now covered by the great Western Ocian (how is it called precisely?) and reached until the Blue Mountains. So only that tiny bit at the coasts remains, the rest is missed for a reason I soon must read.
A little bit of map investigation learns that the fortress in Helmsdeep, and the Tower of Amon Sul (wasn't that build also by the Numenoreans?) are laying far away of that former border. But I have noticed both buildings were constructed near roads. That brought me to the idea that they were build just to protect these roads, and everyone who were travelling upon them. The roads form connections with other realms (the elven and dwarven realms is my guess), and probably many elves, dwarfs and humans used them (merchants, ambassadors and others). But there was the danger of the barbarian people living in the lands between the Blue and the Misty Mountains. The Numenor didn’t had the desire to conquer all that land (I believe the elves might had felt threatened if they would had done that).
Instead the Numenor have build these fortifications as outposts. They probably kept stationed a small army in them, that rode out when the road was attacked. The buildings were so well fortified, because they were standing in the middle of nowhere. When attacked, it would have been impossible to quickly send out an army from Numenor itself.
This is my humble opinion. Now the experts?
Namárië
Orgulas Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/27/2002 2:29 PM
Well, I think you could have a point there. I have been brooding about this thread, but couldn't find a suitable answer. I do remember from reading Silmarillion, that the Numenoreans, especially in the beginning, often went to the more primitive people in ME, to trade and share their knowledge with the Men of Middle Earth. Maybe that is where the roads came from.
Also, after the Island of Numenor had fallen, Elendil and his two sons (and his father) came to Middle Earth. They were the only ones who were not influenced by Sauron (who, at that time, could still pretend to be good), therefor they resided on their ships and therefor they survived the flood. Amandil and Elendil lived by the Elves in the Bay of Lune (don't remember his name correctly: the one who was also called the Builder of ships, is this correct in English for I have only read the Dutch translation of Silmarillion). Elendil's two sons (we all know them!) however, went to Gondor. Well, actually, founded Gondor. Sort of.
It seems that I should definitely reread the Silmarillion, or at least next time bring my English copy with me, to look up the things I don't remember entirely. Give me a day or two, or three, and then I will come up with a more structured post. I promise. Really, I do.
Later....
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend (who is diving into the mysterious realm of the junkyard in her room, to see if she can find the printed version of Silmarillion. It is very important that she succeeds in her quest, if she wants to fulfill her promise.)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 1:14 AM
I'm jumping ahead... but I think it's ok since there aren't many that have posted.
I am struck by what Faramir says to Frodo in Book IV
The Men of Numenor were settled far and wide on the shares and seaward regions of the Great Lands... He goes on later... and the old wisdom and beauty brought out of the west remained long in the realm of the sons of Elendil the Fair, and they linger ther still. Yet even to it was Gondor that brought about it's own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.
Death was ever present, because of the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splended than houses of the living and counted old names in the rolls of the descent dearer thn names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; could towers asked questions of stars, and the last king of the line of Andrion hand no heir.
Numenoreans seemed to love to build fortresses... this in and of itself brings a kind of immortality... a place in history... Faramir implies that such things contributed to their downfall. What purpose did Helm's Deep have?
I am not familar enough of the second age and the beginning of the second age to make any further comment. I will continue to look for answers Algy. Thanks for making me think.
Musing again,
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 1:18 AM
Could they also be the like the "British Empire?" -- Colonization --- they spread out and were like perhaps Alexander the Great? building as they went...
Luthien
* * *
From: Zauber Sent: 1/9/2003 1:51 PM
In many ways, the presence of the Numenoreans corresponds to the Roman empire and their occupation of England, prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Both Romans and Numenoreans were a 'higher culture' lost in the past but leaving traces of their prior existence. Roman towns and particularly roads survived long after the Romans themselves either returned to Rome or were assimilated by the local populations. Subsequent peoples had no idea how buildings could be built with two and three stories, how roads could be so level and smooth. They had no idea of the technology involved.
What I find interesting is that the Rohirrim did keep Hem's deep in good repair, whereas in the north most of the Numenoran buildings had fallen into ruin.
Zauber
* * *
From: DaleAnn Sent: 1/25/2003 12:58 PM
Algy wrote: It may be a bit surprising to learn that the fortress of Helm's Deep was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age and not by the Rohirrim. Much like the Argonath, it always amazes me how far the "Sea People" of Numenor built and occupied around the countryside of Middle-earth.
Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw were also built by the Numenoreans.
Algy wrote: Thinking about the fortress of Helm's Deep during the days of it's infancy, what do you think it's purpose was for the Numenoreans? Considering it's architecture and geographical location, who were the immediate foes or what were they attempting to protect at that time in Middle-earth's history?
I did my best to find out when it was built. No luck! Everything I did find out is in Appendix A section I Numenorean Kings subsection iv: Gondor and the heirs of Anarion and Section II The House of Eorl. I think this statement found in the beginning of Gondor and the Heirs tells the whole story. "Though war never ceased on their borders, for more than a thousand years the Dunedain of the South grew in wealth and power..."
When Gimli speaks of The Glittering Caves of Algarond he says "...Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls..." I betcha that The Hornburg was built to protect the Glittering Caves from whatever enemy of Numenor was around. Figuring out who that might be is a bit tougher, without knowing precicely when it was built. I know you said Second Age, Algy, but I didn't find any hard evidence of that. Romendacil I built the Argonath sometime between 500 and 541 Third Age.
Interesting piece found in UT: "The line of the Isen, between the pincers of Isengard and the Hornburg, was a bulwark against invasion from the East." Last page of Part 3.
Frankly, I think the biggest enemy of Gondor were their own kings. The decay of Gondor happened from within. If they had remembered what they had in the wealth of the Glittering Caves, I doubt they would have given it to Eorl.
The story of Helm Hammerhand is interesting. That story is within Section II of Appendix A beginning with the 9th paragraph "Of the Kings of the Mark..." --DA
It may be a bit surprising to learn that the fortress of Helm's Deep was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age and not by the Rohirrim. Much like the Argonath, it always amazes me how far the "Sea People" of Numenor built and occupied around the countryside of Middle-earth. Looking at the maps in LOTR, you can surmise the great distances that the Numenoreans must have traveled inland and occupied, if maybe only for a short while.
Thinking about the fortress of Helm's Deep during the days of it's infancy, what do you think it's purpose was for the Numenoreans? Considering it's architecture and geographical location, who were the immediate foes or what were they attempting to protect at that time in Middle-earth's history? I think to truly understand something, we must know the purpose for it's creation and continued existence. Let's flesh that out here for the ancient fastness that is known as Helm's Deep.
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 11/27/2002 4:38 AM
Since noone is answering this post, I’m giving it a try. But first I want to point out I don’t know much about the Numenors. I’m just a young hobbit, ignorant of the history of the world we all live in (but I do know a lot of my own family-history ). This is one of these moments I wish I had read the Silmarillion. I’ll soon will, but until than you’ll have to forgive the mistakes I might make in my thinking.
I’ve learned recently (thanks to Lara) that the Numenorean Realm layed in a land which is now covered by the great Western Ocian (how is it called precisely?) and reached until the Blue Mountains. So only that tiny bit at the coasts remains, the rest is missed for a reason I soon must read.
A little bit of map investigation learns that the fortress in Helmsdeep, and the Tower of Amon Sul (wasn't that build also by the Numenoreans?) are laying far away of that former border. But I have noticed both buildings were constructed near roads. That brought me to the idea that they were build just to protect these roads, and everyone who were travelling upon them. The roads form connections with other realms (the elven and dwarven realms is my guess), and probably many elves, dwarfs and humans used them (merchants, ambassadors and others). But there was the danger of the barbarian people living in the lands between the Blue and the Misty Mountains. The Numenor didn’t had the desire to conquer all that land (I believe the elves might had felt threatened if they would had done that).
Instead the Numenor have build these fortifications as outposts. They probably kept stationed a small army in them, that rode out when the road was attacked. The buildings were so well fortified, because they were standing in the middle of nowhere. When attacked, it would have been impossible to quickly send out an army from Numenor itself.
This is my humble opinion. Now the experts?
Namárië
Orgulas Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/27/2002 2:29 PM
Well, I think you could have a point there. I have been brooding about this thread, but couldn't find a suitable answer. I do remember from reading Silmarillion, that the Numenoreans, especially in the beginning, often went to the more primitive people in ME, to trade and share their knowledge with the Men of Middle Earth. Maybe that is where the roads came from.
Also, after the Island of Numenor had fallen, Elendil and his two sons (and his father) came to Middle Earth. They were the only ones who were not influenced by Sauron (who, at that time, could still pretend to be good), therefor they resided on their ships and therefor they survived the flood. Amandil and Elendil lived by the Elves in the Bay of Lune (don't remember his name correctly: the one who was also called the Builder of ships, is this correct in English for I have only read the Dutch translation of Silmarillion). Elendil's two sons (we all know them!) however, went to Gondor. Well, actually, founded Gondor. Sort of.
It seems that I should definitely reread the Silmarillion, or at least next time bring my English copy with me, to look up the things I don't remember entirely. Give me a day or two, or three, and then I will come up with a more structured post. I promise. Really, I do.
Later....
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend (who is diving into the mysterious realm of the junkyard in her room, to see if she can find the printed version of Silmarillion. It is very important that she succeeds in her quest, if she wants to fulfill her promise.)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 1:14 AM
I'm jumping ahead... but I think it's ok since there aren't many that have posted.
I am struck by what Faramir says to Frodo in Book IV
The Men of Numenor were settled far and wide on the shares and seaward regions of the Great Lands... He goes on later... and the old wisdom and beauty brought out of the west remained long in the realm of the sons of Elendil the Fair, and they linger ther still. Yet even to it was Gondor that brought about it's own decay, falling by degrees into dotage, and thinking the Enemy was asleep, who was only banished not destroyed.
Death was ever present, because of the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splended than houses of the living and counted old names in the rolls of the descent dearer thn names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; could towers asked questions of stars, and the last king of the line of Andrion hand no heir.
Numenoreans seemed to love to build fortresses... this in and of itself brings a kind of immortality... a place in history... Faramir implies that such things contributed to their downfall. What purpose did Helm's Deep have?
I am not familar enough of the second age and the beginning of the second age to make any further comment. I will continue to look for answers Algy. Thanks for making me think.
Musing again,
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 1:18 AM
Could they also be the like the "British Empire?" -- Colonization --- they spread out and were like perhaps Alexander the Great? building as they went...
Luthien
* * *
From: Zauber Sent: 1/9/2003 1:51 PM
In many ways, the presence of the Numenoreans corresponds to the Roman empire and their occupation of England, prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Both Romans and Numenoreans were a 'higher culture' lost in the past but leaving traces of their prior existence. Roman towns and particularly roads survived long after the Romans themselves either returned to Rome or were assimilated by the local populations. Subsequent peoples had no idea how buildings could be built with two and three stories, how roads could be so level and smooth. They had no idea of the technology involved.
What I find interesting is that the Rohirrim did keep Hem's deep in good repair, whereas in the north most of the Numenoran buildings had fallen into ruin.
Zauber
* * *
From: DaleAnn Sent: 1/25/2003 12:58 PM
Algy wrote: It may be a bit surprising to learn that the fortress of Helm's Deep was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age and not by the Rohirrim. Much like the Argonath, it always amazes me how far the "Sea People" of Numenor built and occupied around the countryside of Middle-earth.
Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw were also built by the Numenoreans.
Algy wrote: Thinking about the fortress of Helm's Deep during the days of it's infancy, what do you think it's purpose was for the Numenoreans? Considering it's architecture and geographical location, who were the immediate foes or what were they attempting to protect at that time in Middle-earth's history?
I did my best to find out when it was built. No luck! Everything I did find out is in Appendix A section I Numenorean Kings subsection iv: Gondor and the heirs of Anarion and Section II The House of Eorl. I think this statement found in the beginning of Gondor and the Heirs tells the whole story. "Though war never ceased on their borders, for more than a thousand years the Dunedain of the South grew in wealth and power..."
When Gimli speaks of The Glittering Caves of Algarond he says "...Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls..." I betcha that The Hornburg was built to protect the Glittering Caves from whatever enemy of Numenor was around. Figuring out who that might be is a bit tougher, without knowing precicely when it was built. I know you said Second Age, Algy, but I didn't find any hard evidence of that. Romendacil I built the Argonath sometime between 500 and 541 Third Age.
Interesting piece found in UT: "The line of the Isen, between the pincers of Isengard and the Hornburg, was a bulwark against invasion from the East." Last page of Part 3.
Frankly, I think the biggest enemy of Gondor were their own kings. The decay of Gondor happened from within. If they had remembered what they had in the wealth of the Glittering Caves, I doubt they would have given it to Eorl.
The story of Helm Hammerhand is interesting. That story is within Section II of Appendix A beginning with the 9th paragraph "Of the Kings of the Mark..." --DA