Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 7:05:25 GMT -6
From: Alucard Redtooth (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 5:28 PM
In chapter two of The Two Towers, Legolas says, "Rede oft is found at the rising of the Sun." My dictionary says that 'rede' means advice and that it has Old English roots. Tom Shippey says that the Rohirrim speak Old English. (Even though Tolkien says they don't.) Why is Legolas using an Old English word here, rather than some Elvish word?
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(Very STRANGE! There are several comments below to someone named Greg, but there is no message in this discussion from a Greg--not even a comment that the original message from Greg was deleted by the owner of the message or a manager! Is Alucard Redtooth in reality Greg?)
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/21/2002 6:31 PM
Greetings Greg,
It is interesting you point this out, DaleAnn noticed this sort of archaic word and mode use in the first part of the the study. Go to the "FotR" Study: BookII Chap2: The Council of Elrond.
There she out lines the differenc between the styles some of the characters use in their speech patterns as written by Tolkien. Some of it is often subtle, but some is glaring, such as your question in regards to Legolas.
Just for kicks and giggles Legolas was a Sindarin Elf , so his tongue would have been that of the Sindarin (Woodland Realm of Sindarin, yes there are many such variations. Refer to Chap6: Lothlorien, to note Legolas commenting on the difference between his Sindarin, and that of the Elves of Lothlorien.).
So in the Sindarin in general, Rede: "Car" isolated form Caradhras- "Red Horn"
indarin in Mirkwood Rede: "Caran" isolated from Caran-rass- "Red horn"
Quenya Rede: Carnë isolated from carnëmírië- "red-jeweled" or as Sigevna our Elvish botany study would know, "Rowan Tree".
I hope you check out DaleAnn's previous study, if this is not the explaination you seek, or you have another path please post it. We love meandering down on followed paths around these here parts!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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From: DaleAnn Sent: 10/21/2002 6:50 PM
Dear Greg, Welcome to TR. Hope you like here.
I just tried to post my reply but, apparently Iarwain's reply bumped mine into cyber-space. I'll try to reconstruct it.
Legolas is speaking Westron or Common Speech. Tolkien "translated" it into English. I believe he gave Legolas the word "rede" precisely because it is an archaic word to "age" him. I'm guessing that Tolkien even let Gimli interpret it for us in the next line of his because it was so archaic that most modern readers had never heard it before.
I checked that entire line of Legolas's against my dictionary. All of the words trace their origins to Anglo-Saxon, or interchangebly, Old English. Old English is the foreunner of modern English. It is not a foreign language. None of the words in the sentence are "borrowed" from another language (such as French), though some words (like "is") had similar roots in other languages.
Read Appendix F section II. Tolkien states that he used "ancient" English for the language of the Rohirrim. Ancient English is Anglo-saxon. ---DA
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From: RobedMERLIN Sent: 10/28/2002 7:29 AM
Alucard: I too noticed this..I came up with 2 different ideas:
A-- maybe this was a honest mistake that was never caught by tolkien or any of the proof-readers.....
B-- Maybe this is an instance of JRRT trying to get our attention..to get us wondering etc.......or he could've just been trying to see if we were paying attention in the first place..lol
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/28/2002 8:00 PM
After reading my reply I see I was reading the pun into this that no one else got , and didn't explain my understanding/translation. I took "rede" as literal sense in the form of color. Red skys of warning to the sailor, red dawn at the break of war, ect. I wonder now if perhaps I was being too poetic and esoteric.
By the way Dale Ann, sorry I bumped your message into cyber oblivion, I didn't do it knowingly! Or did I?
Namárië,
Iarwain
In chapter two of The Two Towers, Legolas says, "Rede oft is found at the rising of the Sun." My dictionary says that 'rede' means advice and that it has Old English roots. Tom Shippey says that the Rohirrim speak Old English. (Even though Tolkien says they don't.) Why is Legolas using an Old English word here, rather than some Elvish word?
* * *
(Very STRANGE! There are several comments below to someone named Greg, but there is no message in this discussion from a Greg--not even a comment that the original message from Greg was deleted by the owner of the message or a manager! Is Alucard Redtooth in reality Greg?)
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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/21/2002 6:31 PM
Greetings Greg,
It is interesting you point this out, DaleAnn noticed this sort of archaic word and mode use in the first part of the the study. Go to the "FotR" Study: BookII Chap2: The Council of Elrond.
There she out lines the differenc between the styles some of the characters use in their speech patterns as written by Tolkien. Some of it is often subtle, but some is glaring, such as your question in regards to Legolas.
Just for kicks and giggles Legolas was a Sindarin Elf , so his tongue would have been that of the Sindarin (Woodland Realm of Sindarin, yes there are many such variations. Refer to Chap6: Lothlorien, to note Legolas commenting on the difference between his Sindarin, and that of the Elves of Lothlorien.).
So in the Sindarin in general, Rede: "Car" isolated form Caradhras- "Red Horn"
indarin in Mirkwood Rede: "Caran" isolated from Caran-rass- "Red horn"
Quenya Rede: Carnë isolated from carnëmírië- "red-jeweled" or as Sigevna our Elvish botany study would know, "Rowan Tree".
I hope you check out DaleAnn's previous study, if this is not the explaination you seek, or you have another path please post it. We love meandering down on followed paths around these here parts!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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From: DaleAnn Sent: 10/21/2002 6:50 PM
Dear Greg, Welcome to TR. Hope you like here.
I just tried to post my reply but, apparently Iarwain's reply bumped mine into cyber-space. I'll try to reconstruct it.
Legolas is speaking Westron or Common Speech. Tolkien "translated" it into English. I believe he gave Legolas the word "rede" precisely because it is an archaic word to "age" him. I'm guessing that Tolkien even let Gimli interpret it for us in the next line of his because it was so archaic that most modern readers had never heard it before.
I checked that entire line of Legolas's against my dictionary. All of the words trace their origins to Anglo-Saxon, or interchangebly, Old English. Old English is the foreunner of modern English. It is not a foreign language. None of the words in the sentence are "borrowed" from another language (such as French), though some words (like "is") had similar roots in other languages.
Read Appendix F section II. Tolkien states that he used "ancient" English for the language of the Rohirrim. Ancient English is Anglo-saxon. ---DA
* * *
From: RobedMERLIN Sent: 10/28/2002 7:29 AM
Alucard: I too noticed this..I came up with 2 different ideas:
A-- maybe this was a honest mistake that was never caught by tolkien or any of the proof-readers.....
B-- Maybe this is an instance of JRRT trying to get our attention..to get us wondering etc.......or he could've just been trying to see if we were paying attention in the first place..lol
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/28/2002 8:00 PM
After reading my reply I see I was reading the pun into this that no one else got , and didn't explain my understanding/translation. I took "rede" as literal sense in the form of color. Red skys of warning to the sailor, red dawn at the break of war, ect. I wonder now if perhaps I was being too poetic and esoteric.
By the way Dale Ann, sorry I bumped your message into cyber oblivion, I didn't do it knowingly! Or did I?
Namárië,
Iarwain