Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 7:14:00 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/29/2002 9:52 PM
Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke. "Saruman, Saruman!" said Gandalf still laughing. "Saruman, you missed your path in life. You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors. Ah me!" he paused, getting the better of his mirth. "Understand one another? I fear I am beyond your comprehension ..."
This is a major event in the saga. Gandalf's refusal of Saruman and his elevation beyond Saruman's status. How does Gandalf mean this to be taken by his former superior? Compare and contrast the manner in which Gandalf addresses Saruman in FOTR and now - is his character wholely different? Does Saruman even realize the depths of Gandalf's metamorphosis at this point?
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 11/30/2002 6:19 AM
I do not think that Saruman could have failed to realize Gandalfs change. I believe it pushed Saruman even more into evil and malice. Nothing could poison an evil mind more than to think all former allies were truly against him, as he always formulated.
His mind was so poisoned by Sauron at that point, even his own fall, did not precursor Saurons. I feel he thought even then, that his salvation would come in time from the Dark Tower.
In his mind, the Horned Tower may have fallen, but against the Dark Tower, none but allies would prevail. Even our heroes at that time, were in doubt.
Glor
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 12/1/2002 1:19 AM
This post reminded me of something I'd read recently at Green Books' Q & A section for 11/02. They pointed out that evil, in LotR, cannot comprehend good -- like, evil cannot figure it out at all. (In the context there, it referred to Sauron being "stupid" enough not to realize they were trying to destroy the One Ring.)
I think that is what happens with Saruman here. He has fallen so far from good that Gandalf, who has risen so high, is now beyond his ability to understand. I don't think that Saruman understood the change in Gandalf very well, if he recognized it much at all.
~Questyn
Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke. "Saruman, Saruman!" said Gandalf still laughing. "Saruman, you missed your path in life. You should have been the king's jester and earned your bread, and stripes too, by mimicking his counsellors. Ah me!" he paused, getting the better of his mirth. "Understand one another? I fear I am beyond your comprehension ..."
This is a major event in the saga. Gandalf's refusal of Saruman and his elevation beyond Saruman's status. How does Gandalf mean this to be taken by his former superior? Compare and contrast the manner in which Gandalf addresses Saruman in FOTR and now - is his character wholely different? Does Saruman even realize the depths of Gandalf's metamorphosis at this point?
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 11/30/2002 6:19 AM
I do not think that Saruman could have failed to realize Gandalfs change. I believe it pushed Saruman even more into evil and malice. Nothing could poison an evil mind more than to think all former allies were truly against him, as he always formulated.
His mind was so poisoned by Sauron at that point, even his own fall, did not precursor Saurons. I feel he thought even then, that his salvation would come in time from the Dark Tower.
In his mind, the Horned Tower may have fallen, but against the Dark Tower, none but allies would prevail. Even our heroes at that time, were in doubt.
Glor
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 12/1/2002 1:19 AM
This post reminded me of something I'd read recently at Green Books' Q & A section for 11/02. They pointed out that evil, in LotR, cannot comprehend good -- like, evil cannot figure it out at all. (In the context there, it referred to Sauron being "stupid" enough not to realize they were trying to destroy the One Ring.)
I think that is what happens with Saruman here. He has fallen so far from good that Gandalf, who has risen so high, is now beyond his ability to understand. I don't think that Saruman understood the change in Gandalf very well, if he recognized it much at all.
~Questyn