Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 7:20:56 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/29/2002 11:29 PM
In our Week Four reading, we observe the effects of touching the Palantir on our youngest Hobbit, Peregrin. When the seeing stone is first lobbed from Orthanc, he saves it from a descent into one of Saruman's vents and it is quickly acquired from him by Gandalf. Pippin's mind dwells upon the object and eventually this "curiousity" drives him to obtain it by shady methods ... against his better judgement.
The Palantir is described as "Heavy" to Pippin, a term which Tolkien does not use lightly (pardon the pun) in his literature. Curious that the One Ring is described in a similar fashion. Does Pippin's desire to view and possess the stone compare in ways to the addictive nature of the One Ring? If not, contrast the two desires. If so, what are some reasons behind this?
Did the Palantir have an allure of its own or was it simply Sauron's Will using the stone as a conduit?
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 11/30/2002 4:57 AM
As we all know, the palantirí were used by the ancient kings of Númenor, and were made to function in a good way. As were the Elven rings. But the Great Eye, can bend many good things to his own will. Even the very wise, such as Saruman in the old days, can fall victim to the will of Barad-dûr. It is both a poetic and literature device to give "weight" to things of evil. Weight over time is especially a device. Time itelf is a "weight". The combination of the two are deadly.
It seems a Jungian archtype of immortality is light, weightlessness, while the opposite is true of evil. Evil is heavy, gnawing, and insiduous. It seems likley that the palantirí, once a device for good, became a portal for an evil that could not take shape. But the evil could manifest in things that bent the mind and will. And of course it again had "weight". Many times has a man said, "I must weigh this evil" .....to indicate how his decision is being made. Evil and weight have alot to do with each other. Interesting topic Algamesh, thanks for brooching it.
Glor
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 12/3/2002 7:32 PM
The shape of the stone also makes me think of the tempting, dangerous fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.
Redha
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/8/2002 3:29 PM
I was wondering this same thing as I read these passages this time around. Was touching the Palantir enough for Sauron's will to take hold of Pippin's mind and create that curiosity and the desire to lay his hands on it? When Pippin first retrieved the Palantir when it was first thrown at Saruman, I did not get the impression that Pippin had really seen anything in it.
I was reading in Unfinished Tales about the Palantiri and it states that they must be placed in a certain position inorder to work:
Though without any external markings of any kind they had permanent poles, and were originally so placed in their sites that they stood upright; their diameters from pole to pole pointed to the earth's center, but the permanent nether pole must then be at the bottom. The faces along the circumference in this position were the viewing faces, receiving the visions from the outside, but transmitting them to the eye of a surveyor upon the far side. A surveyor, therefore, who wished to look west would place himself on the east side of the Stone, and if he wished to shift his vision northward must move to his left, southward. But the minor stones, of Orthanc, Ithil, Anor and Annúminas had also fixed orientation in their original situation, so that their west face would only look west and turned in other directions was blank. If a Stone became unseated or disturbed it could be re-set by observation, and it was then useful to revolve it. But when removed and cast down, as was the Orthanc-stone, it was not so easy to set right. So it was 'by chance' that Pippin fumbling with the Stone, must have set it on the ground more or less upright, and sitting westward of it have had the fixed east-looking face in the proper position.
So when Pippin picked it up, I am sure it was not in the correct position nor was there enough time for Sauron to become aware that Pippin had it to send any subliminal signals. I have to believe, at this point, that it is just the curious nature of Pippin that drives him to wonder more about the heavy dark stone that Gandalf snatched from his grasp so quickly. I think that is what drove Pippin to want to get a better look at it. As stated above from UT, it was still by chance that Pippin was even able to see Sauron at all.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Nosmada Sent: 12/10/2002 2:32 PM
I think it is very possible that the palantir has somewhat of the same allure as the ring does. This particular palantir was used by Saruman to communicate with Sauron, therefore it has probably been somewhat corrupted by the dark power of Sauron just as the ring has been. However, Sauron poured his power into the ring, so it definietly has much more of his evil power it and the palantir probably just has a small amount, so I would say that the palantir is kind of like the ring on a much smaller scale.
In our Week Four reading, we observe the effects of touching the Palantir on our youngest Hobbit, Peregrin. When the seeing stone is first lobbed from Orthanc, he saves it from a descent into one of Saruman's vents and it is quickly acquired from him by Gandalf. Pippin's mind dwells upon the object and eventually this "curiousity" drives him to obtain it by shady methods ... against his better judgement.
The Palantir is described as "Heavy" to Pippin, a term which Tolkien does not use lightly (pardon the pun) in his literature. Curious that the One Ring is described in a similar fashion. Does Pippin's desire to view and possess the stone compare in ways to the addictive nature of the One Ring? If not, contrast the two desires. If so, what are some reasons behind this?
Did the Palantir have an allure of its own or was it simply Sauron's Will using the stone as a conduit?
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 11/30/2002 4:57 AM
As we all know, the palantirí were used by the ancient kings of Númenor, and were made to function in a good way. As were the Elven rings. But the Great Eye, can bend many good things to his own will. Even the very wise, such as Saruman in the old days, can fall victim to the will of Barad-dûr. It is both a poetic and literature device to give "weight" to things of evil. Weight over time is especially a device. Time itelf is a "weight". The combination of the two are deadly.
It seems a Jungian archtype of immortality is light, weightlessness, while the opposite is true of evil. Evil is heavy, gnawing, and insiduous. It seems likley that the palantirí, once a device for good, became a portal for an evil that could not take shape. But the evil could manifest in things that bent the mind and will. And of course it again had "weight". Many times has a man said, "I must weigh this evil" .....to indicate how his decision is being made. Evil and weight have alot to do with each other. Interesting topic Algamesh, thanks for brooching it.
Glor
* * *
From: Redha Sent: 12/3/2002 7:32 PM
The shape of the stone also makes me think of the tempting, dangerous fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.
Redha
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/8/2002 3:29 PM
I was wondering this same thing as I read these passages this time around. Was touching the Palantir enough for Sauron's will to take hold of Pippin's mind and create that curiosity and the desire to lay his hands on it? When Pippin first retrieved the Palantir when it was first thrown at Saruman, I did not get the impression that Pippin had really seen anything in it.
I was reading in Unfinished Tales about the Palantiri and it states that they must be placed in a certain position inorder to work:
Though without any external markings of any kind they had permanent poles, and were originally so placed in their sites that they stood upright; their diameters from pole to pole pointed to the earth's center, but the permanent nether pole must then be at the bottom. The faces along the circumference in this position were the viewing faces, receiving the visions from the outside, but transmitting them to the eye of a surveyor upon the far side. A surveyor, therefore, who wished to look west would place himself on the east side of the Stone, and if he wished to shift his vision northward must move to his left, southward. But the minor stones, of Orthanc, Ithil, Anor and Annúminas had also fixed orientation in their original situation, so that their west face would only look west and turned in other directions was blank. If a Stone became unseated or disturbed it could be re-set by observation, and it was then useful to revolve it. But when removed and cast down, as was the Orthanc-stone, it was not so easy to set right. So it was 'by chance' that Pippin fumbling with the Stone, must have set it on the ground more or less upright, and sitting westward of it have had the fixed east-looking face in the proper position.
So when Pippin picked it up, I am sure it was not in the correct position nor was there enough time for Sauron to become aware that Pippin had it to send any subliminal signals. I have to believe, at this point, that it is just the curious nature of Pippin that drives him to wonder more about the heavy dark stone that Gandalf snatched from his grasp so quickly. I think that is what drove Pippin to want to get a better look at it. As stated above from UT, it was still by chance that Pippin was even able to see Sauron at all.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Nosmada Sent: 12/10/2002 2:32 PM
I think it is very possible that the palantir has somewhat of the same allure as the ring does. This particular palantir was used by Saruman to communicate with Sauron, therefore it has probably been somewhat corrupted by the dark power of Sauron just as the ring has been. However, Sauron poured his power into the ring, so it definietly has much more of his evil power it and the palantir probably just has a small amount, so I would say that the palantir is kind of like the ring on a much smaller scale.