Post by Stormrider on Jan 23, 2009 7:30:09 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/29/2002 10:08 PM
Gandalf ends his parley with Saruman in Book 3 Chapter 10 by claiming that Saruman has no color now, casting him from the order of Wizards and the White Council, and ... by breaking his staff.
Was this an actual "stripping" of his powers? What I mean by this is, do we interpret Gandalf's actions as literally taking Saruman's ability to enchant or is this simply a loss of credibility and station? Let's watch for examples to support both possibilities in our future readings.
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 11/30/2002 5:19 AM
Obviously, Saruman, maintained his ability to influence,as evidenced by the "scouring of the Shire"......
As far as his ability and stature as a wizard and Maia, I believe that was broken then. If anything, I think the ability to return to the undying lands, was forbidden at that point.
It is interesting to note the ability granted to the Maia, the "Istari" in ME. They were all in the same vein: Sauron, the Balrog, the Istari......but not all powers were the same. The fall and ressurection of Gandalf in particular is evidence of involement by higher powers. What more can we say along these lines?
Glor
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From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 1:51 AM
I always supposed that when Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White... on top of Celebdil... that Saruman had completely lost his title. As far as his enchanted speech... I believe (I'm taking the stand for now) he would always have that gift... He is a spirit and does not change. Is Gandalf still the wielder of the fire of Anor? The encounter with Gandalf was symbolic, but important for both Saruman and Gandalf... Saruman had a chance at redemption (however, not at regaining his position), but refused it. Pride always seems to get in the way of redemption... it's hard to admit you are wrong. I guess I might have the opportunity to admit I am before long on this one...
Luthien (Sarah)
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From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 1/10/2003 3:26 PM
I agree Gandalf being already the head of the White Counsil after defeating the balrog. It only wasn't known to the rest of the world, the news only spread slowly. I think this scene was the "official ceremony”.
Saruman still could use his voice, so he still had got some powers. But maybe he did lost a part of it. I’m wondering what the actual breaking of his staff did. In some scenes you learn a wizard doesn’t want to be parted from his staff. For example: before Gandalf entered King Theoden’s hall, and Saruman accusing him that he wants to own all the staffs (and all power). Does it contain part of the wiz’ powers?
In the fantasy stories I write, the wiz’ staff is magical, but hasn’t got powers of its own. It focuses the powers of the wizard, and thereby multiplies it, so the spell is better cast. But the wiz’ staff is useless for everyone without magic powers. It’s kinda like a magnifying glass, that intensifies the light, but the glass itself has no light to offer.
What's your opinion on this?
Orgulas
(examinating magic)
Gandalf ends his parley with Saruman in Book 3 Chapter 10 by claiming that Saruman has no color now, casting him from the order of Wizards and the White Council, and ... by breaking his staff.
Was this an actual "stripping" of his powers? What I mean by this is, do we interpret Gandalf's actions as literally taking Saruman's ability to enchant or is this simply a loss of credibility and station? Let's watch for examples to support both possibilities in our future readings.
* * *
From: Glorfindle Sent: 11/30/2002 5:19 AM
Obviously, Saruman, maintained his ability to influence,as evidenced by the "scouring of the Shire"......
As far as his ability and stature as a wizard and Maia, I believe that was broken then. If anything, I think the ability to return to the undying lands, was forbidden at that point.
It is interesting to note the ability granted to the Maia, the "Istari" in ME. They were all in the same vein: Sauron, the Balrog, the Istari......but not all powers were the same. The fall and ressurection of Gandalf in particular is evidence of involement by higher powers. What more can we say along these lines?
Glor
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 1:51 AM
I always supposed that when Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White... on top of Celebdil... that Saruman had completely lost his title. As far as his enchanted speech... I believe (I'm taking the stand for now) he would always have that gift... He is a spirit and does not change. Is Gandalf still the wielder of the fire of Anor? The encounter with Gandalf was symbolic, but important for both Saruman and Gandalf... Saruman had a chance at redemption (however, not at regaining his position), but refused it. Pride always seems to get in the way of redemption... it's hard to admit you are wrong. I guess I might have the opportunity to admit I am before long on this one...
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 1/10/2003 3:26 PM
I agree Gandalf being already the head of the White Counsil after defeating the balrog. It only wasn't known to the rest of the world, the news only spread slowly. I think this scene was the "official ceremony”.
Saruman still could use his voice, so he still had got some powers. But maybe he did lost a part of it. I’m wondering what the actual breaking of his staff did. In some scenes you learn a wizard doesn’t want to be parted from his staff. For example: before Gandalf entered King Theoden’s hall, and Saruman accusing him that he wants to own all the staffs (and all power). Does it contain part of the wiz’ powers?
In the fantasy stories I write, the wiz’ staff is magical, but hasn’t got powers of its own. It focuses the powers of the wizard, and thereby multiplies it, so the spell is better cast. But the wiz’ staff is useless for everyone without magic powers. It’s kinda like a magnifying glass, that intensifies the light, but the glass itself has no light to offer.
What's your opinion on this?
Orgulas
(examinating magic)