Post by Stormrider on Jan 24, 2009 18:15:39 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 11/30/2002 9:01 PM
Recall that during our study of the FOTR, we had a tracking thread that dealt with the color "Grey". Well, you may notice that Tolkien returns to the use of this color with re-doubled efforts at this point in the saga. Why has the color "Grey" become widely used again? What does the use of this color provide for us as readers?
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 12/5/2002 4:28 AM
First, a recap (my FotR post with a few cuts) . . . .
I’ve been delving into the people and things named or described as ‘grey.’ What most have in common, I believe, is that they’re not wholly one thing or another, or they belong in two places or states simultaneously. They’re on a borderline or threshold, or are of (not necessary in but of) more than one realm.
Mist is often described as grey by Tolkien. Well, it is! But what is mist: droplets of liquid or vapor? It’s both. Mist is droplets of water suspended in vapor. It’s two states of water -- liquid and steam -- existing simultaneously.
Tolkien sometimes describes the dawn or twilight as grey. Obviously, if it’s a dreary day the sky will be grey. But as with mist, dawn and twilight are in-between states, thresholds between night and day.
The Grey-Elves (Sindarin) ‘perhaps...were not of the Light (of Valinor) nor yet of the Dark (Avari), but were Elves of the Twilight.’¹ In Book II Chap. 1, p.216, speaking of the lords of the Eldar, Gandalf says, ‘[T]hose who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds.’
The Ringwraiths, or Nazgûl, are in an in-between state, neither living nor dead. Sort of like zombies! ‘But what do the Ringwraiths have to do with grey?’ you ask. ‘Didn’t they wear black and were, in fact, also known as the Black Riders?’ you point out, and rightfully so. Hark, and I will tell you! Book I Chap. 11, p.191: When Frodo can no longer resist the Ring and put it on just before being stabbed, he is able to see the Nazgûl. Under their black cloaks, they wore grey robes; their hair was also grey.
Book I Chap. 7, p.128: Old Man Willow’s ‘grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth....’ At first glance, it looks like grey is describing his thirst. But remember young Tolkien’s ‘green great dragon’? Perhaps both words refer to Willow’s spirit, in which case ‘grey’ refers to a part of living things that exists in the material world but is not of it. Spirit either resides in both the spirit and material worlds, or comes from the spirit realm to reside in living things while they’re in the physical realm.
Book I Chap. 9, p.153: Frodo notices Strider’s ‘keen grey eyes.’ Two things. At this point in the story, Strider’s an unknown factor. Strider himself has two discrete personae: He’s a Ranger and hunter, yet is also the rightful King of Gondor and Arnor. Gandalf describes Strider as a contradiction: He’s (metaphorically speaking) gold but does not glimmer; he wanders but is not lost. In Book I Chap. 10, p.161, Aragorn talks about Strider as if he were another person.
Book I Chap. 7, p.127: A ‘grey rain’ is falling. Frodo sees it as a ‘kindly weather, because it delayed them from departing [Tom Bombadil’s home].’ As we find out later, this delay may have saved their lives as it prevented the Hobbits from running into the Nazgûl at Bree (see Book I Chap. 10, p.161). TB’s turf doesn’t seem to be quite of this world: Neither evil nor danger can penetrate TB’s home; Frodo noted, as in Rivendell, that time doesn’t work the same way there. (Okay, I may be pushing it a bit here!)
Some of Gandalf’s most important work is done behind-the-scenes: His questioning of Gollum, his research in Gondor about the history of the Ring, his dealings with and imprisonment by Saruman. Tolkien doesn’t tell us about these things -- Gandalf does. Quite often he’s not physically with the Hobbits or the Fellowship, yet he helps in ways that no one else can; he does crucial work and gets information without which the quest would not be possible.
Then there’s Gandalf himself. He’s one of five Istari, whom Tolkien says were Valar ‘of a sort’ (sorry, I can’t find a direct reference for this). He’s probably a Maiar, a spirit that can take the form of a man.
¹ ‘The Silmarillion,’ Index of Names; also, the last page of chapter 4 of ‘The Silmarillion’
END OF FotR edited post
Algamesh may have found more grey than I did. In TTT, there's another example of Gandalf's grey-ness. Because of Gandalf’s resurrection after his run-in with the Balrog, apparently he’s able to cross the threshold between the land of the living and the land of the dead. Again, not wholly of this world.
In Book III, third page of ch. 4 (p. 452 in H-M ppb), there are two examples. Pippin notes that the weather 'will all go grey again.' Overhearing their comment was Treebeard, whose beard is grey. Merry and Pippin's first impression of Treebeard is that he's 'Man-like, almost Troll-like'; and, of course, he's a tree! Again, lots of border-crossing here, with grey weather to introduce it.
At the beginning of Bk III, ch 5, 'Doubt was in the grey eyes [of Faramir] that gazed steadily at Frodo.' Doubt itself is grey: Faramir doesn't know what to make of Frodo and Sam, nor do they know what to make of Faramir. Can they/he be trusted? As when the Hobbits first met Strider, Faramir is an unknown factor, only here it goes both ways, since the two Hobbits are equally unknown to Faramir.
Well, that's about it for grey in TTT. Grey is mentioned much more often, but, to paraphrase Freud, sometimes grey is just a color :-)
If anyone's found other examples, if you think grey might hold other meanings or if you think my theory is a pile of pony poop, let's hear it!
Diana
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 12/5/2002 4:33 AM
Sorry, I made a mistake:
>> At the beginning of Bk III, ch 5, 'Doubt was in the grey eyes [of Faramir]....
That should be Book IV, ch 5.
Diana
* * *
From: Patricia Sent: 12/7/2002 9:46 PM
I agree with Amaranth, the use of the color grey can represent the state of being stuck in two places or forms. Shadowfax, Gandalf's horse is gray, and remains grey, even after Gandalf's title changes. I think that Tolkien used the color grey to show how important certain characters were in the battle of Good and Evil. The good being the white and the evil being the black, and those who were involved in the quest were touched by both leaving them in a state of venturing either way, to the white the good or turning to the evil the black.
Recall that during our study of the FOTR, we had a tracking thread that dealt with the color "Grey". Well, you may notice that Tolkien returns to the use of this color with re-doubled efforts at this point in the saga. Why has the color "Grey" become widely used again? What does the use of this color provide for us as readers?
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 12/5/2002 4:28 AM
First, a recap (my FotR post with a few cuts) . . . .
I’ve been delving into the people and things named or described as ‘grey.’ What most have in common, I believe, is that they’re not wholly one thing or another, or they belong in two places or states simultaneously. They’re on a borderline or threshold, or are of (not necessary in but of) more than one realm.
Mist is often described as grey by Tolkien. Well, it is! But what is mist: droplets of liquid or vapor? It’s both. Mist is droplets of water suspended in vapor. It’s two states of water -- liquid and steam -- existing simultaneously.
Tolkien sometimes describes the dawn or twilight as grey. Obviously, if it’s a dreary day the sky will be grey. But as with mist, dawn and twilight are in-between states, thresholds between night and day.
The Grey-Elves (Sindarin) ‘perhaps...were not of the Light (of Valinor) nor yet of the Dark (Avari), but were Elves of the Twilight.’¹ In Book II Chap. 1, p.216, speaking of the lords of the Eldar, Gandalf says, ‘[T]hose who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds.’
The Ringwraiths, or Nazgûl, are in an in-between state, neither living nor dead. Sort of like zombies! ‘But what do the Ringwraiths have to do with grey?’ you ask. ‘Didn’t they wear black and were, in fact, also known as the Black Riders?’ you point out, and rightfully so. Hark, and I will tell you! Book I Chap. 11, p.191: When Frodo can no longer resist the Ring and put it on just before being stabbed, he is able to see the Nazgûl. Under their black cloaks, they wore grey robes; their hair was also grey.
Book I Chap. 7, p.128: Old Man Willow’s ‘grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth....’ At first glance, it looks like grey is describing his thirst. But remember young Tolkien’s ‘green great dragon’? Perhaps both words refer to Willow’s spirit, in which case ‘grey’ refers to a part of living things that exists in the material world but is not of it. Spirit either resides in both the spirit and material worlds, or comes from the spirit realm to reside in living things while they’re in the physical realm.
Book I Chap. 9, p.153: Frodo notices Strider’s ‘keen grey eyes.’ Two things. At this point in the story, Strider’s an unknown factor. Strider himself has two discrete personae: He’s a Ranger and hunter, yet is also the rightful King of Gondor and Arnor. Gandalf describes Strider as a contradiction: He’s (metaphorically speaking) gold but does not glimmer; he wanders but is not lost. In Book I Chap. 10, p.161, Aragorn talks about Strider as if he were another person.
Book I Chap. 7, p.127: A ‘grey rain’ is falling. Frodo sees it as a ‘kindly weather, because it delayed them from departing [Tom Bombadil’s home].’ As we find out later, this delay may have saved their lives as it prevented the Hobbits from running into the Nazgûl at Bree (see Book I Chap. 10, p.161). TB’s turf doesn’t seem to be quite of this world: Neither evil nor danger can penetrate TB’s home; Frodo noted, as in Rivendell, that time doesn’t work the same way there. (Okay, I may be pushing it a bit here!)
Some of Gandalf’s most important work is done behind-the-scenes: His questioning of Gollum, his research in Gondor about the history of the Ring, his dealings with and imprisonment by Saruman. Tolkien doesn’t tell us about these things -- Gandalf does. Quite often he’s not physically with the Hobbits or the Fellowship, yet he helps in ways that no one else can; he does crucial work and gets information without which the quest would not be possible.
Then there’s Gandalf himself. He’s one of five Istari, whom Tolkien says were Valar ‘of a sort’ (sorry, I can’t find a direct reference for this). He’s probably a Maiar, a spirit that can take the form of a man.
¹ ‘The Silmarillion,’ Index of Names; also, the last page of chapter 4 of ‘The Silmarillion’
END OF FotR edited post
Algamesh may have found more grey than I did. In TTT, there's another example of Gandalf's grey-ness. Because of Gandalf’s resurrection after his run-in with the Balrog, apparently he’s able to cross the threshold between the land of the living and the land of the dead. Again, not wholly of this world.
In Book III, third page of ch. 4 (p. 452 in H-M ppb), there are two examples. Pippin notes that the weather 'will all go grey again.' Overhearing their comment was Treebeard, whose beard is grey. Merry and Pippin's first impression of Treebeard is that he's 'Man-like, almost Troll-like'; and, of course, he's a tree! Again, lots of border-crossing here, with grey weather to introduce it.
At the beginning of Bk III, ch 5, 'Doubt was in the grey eyes [of Faramir] that gazed steadily at Frodo.' Doubt itself is grey: Faramir doesn't know what to make of Frodo and Sam, nor do they know what to make of Faramir. Can they/he be trusted? As when the Hobbits first met Strider, Faramir is an unknown factor, only here it goes both ways, since the two Hobbits are equally unknown to Faramir.
Well, that's about it for grey in TTT. Grey is mentioned much more often, but, to paraphrase Freud, sometimes grey is just a color :-)
If anyone's found other examples, if you think grey might hold other meanings or if you think my theory is a pile of pony poop, let's hear it!
Diana
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 12/5/2002 4:33 AM
Sorry, I made a mistake:
>> At the beginning of Bk III, ch 5, 'Doubt was in the grey eyes [of Faramir]....
That should be Book IV, ch 5.
Diana
* * *
From: Patricia Sent: 12/7/2002 9:46 PM
I agree with Amaranth, the use of the color grey can represent the state of being stuck in two places or forms. Shadowfax, Gandalf's horse is gray, and remains grey, even after Gandalf's title changes. I think that Tolkien used the color grey to show how important certain characters were in the battle of Good and Evil. The good being the white and the evil being the black, and those who were involved in the quest were touched by both leaving them in a state of venturing either way, to the white the good or turning to the evil the black.