Post by Stormrider on Jan 24, 2009 18:40:28 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 12/4/2002 9:57 PM
During their passage through the Dead Marshes, Frodo & Co. encounter apparitions in the water of Elves, Men, and Orcs. Gollum tells Forod and Sam that they were combatants who fell long ago in an ancient war and that they attempt to lure travellers into the waters to become like them ... ghostly apparitions.
How do these entities fit into the theology of Middle-earth? Are the ghosts of the Marshes actually lost souls who have become trapped in the bogs north of Mordor or can they be explained otherwise? This is one of those questions that I would have loved to been able to pose to JRRT because it seems to be a paradox considering his handling of the dead in the supporting literature concerning the history and nature of Eä.
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 12/6/2002 4:49 PM
The marshes have always puzzled me. I used to invision them as an anciet battlefield covered with burial grounds like the Barrowdowns. But then this mysterious swamp overtook and disrupted the graves, mixing the races. The dead appear awake becuase the Marsh disturbed them. (what is Tolkien's obsession with living dead, like the parths of the dead etc.?) But this does not explain why the dead are lighting little lights.
(thinking out loud here) Maybe the dead appear awake because the marsh disturbed them. They defeated Sauran on the battlefield didn't they, maybe the lights are the elves and men's way of claiming the land for good. I don't know why they so captivated Frodo. Then again, the lights could just be reflections of the stars. Gollum doesn't like the stars so he wouldn't like their reflection. Gollum seems to hint that the candles are not always lit. Stars are not always out either.
For a second I thought about dead elves living in the marshed as some twisted form of immortality, but then I recalled that there were Orcs and men there to. So now I am going back to my flooded barrow-down theory.
I'd be interested in your thoughts
keep shining
elanor
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 12/9/2002 3:44 AM
It could be that the lights of the Dead Marshes have no connection with the corpses (or illusions of corpses) that lie there.
Are they natural phenomina?
I've never seen such things myself, but I'm told that lights, caused by marsh gases, are not uncommon in marshlands of our own world. In our own societies, before the Scientific Age, supernatural causes were ascribed to these lights, given names like will o'the wisp and jack-a-lantern. Their purpose was to misslead travllers.
To the people of Middle Earth, having no knowledge of chemistry and the properties of methane, it would be logical to connect the lights with the images of the dead that lay in the marshes.
The copses themselves are not natural. Gollum tells the hobbits that he has tried to reach them and found they have no real presence in the world. They are an illusion.
It's not suprising that Tolkien uses images of dead soldiers in his tales. He witnessed first-hand the carnage of the Somme battlefields. He had seen thousands of corpses scattered as far as the eye could see. He had lived with dead and dying men around him in the trenches. Those images must have stayed with him all his life.
It's amazing that people can come through such experiences with a little of their sanity left. Many, like Frodo, didn't.
Selmo.
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 12/9/2002 7:15 AM
Is it possible that these souls are trapped in the Marshes, because of the evil of Sauron nearby. Evil could mutilate Elves into Orcs, so why not trap the souls of those that fell in the battle fought there? But then why they light candles, I have no idea. Maybe just to mark their presence there. Or, like Selmo says, the lights are just caused by swamp gasses. I too have heard of this, and actually I wouldn't mind seeing such a thing. It must have kind of an eerie effect.
Lara
* * *
From: scuba smartbody Sent: 12/9/2002 3:50 PM
"He first saw one with the corner of his left eye, a wisp of pale sheen that faded away; but others appeared soon after: some like dimly shining smoke, some like misty flames flickering slowly above unseen candles; here and there they twisted like ghostly sheets unfurled by hidden hands. But neither of his companions spoke a word.
At last Sam could bear it no longer. 'What's all this, Gollum?' he said in a whisper...
Gollum looked up...'yes they are all round us,' he whispered. 'the tricksy lights. Candles of Corpses,..'
What are these candles of corpses? Where do these people come from and how did they get to the marshes? Will they ever arise if they are trapped by the evil of Sauron? What will come of them? How big of a danger did they pose to the three ring bearers?
During their passage through the Dead Marshes, Frodo & Co. encounter apparitions in the water of Elves, Men, and Orcs. Gollum tells Forod and Sam that they were combatants who fell long ago in an ancient war and that they attempt to lure travellers into the waters to become like them ... ghostly apparitions.
How do these entities fit into the theology of Middle-earth? Are the ghosts of the Marshes actually lost souls who have become trapped in the bogs north of Mordor or can they be explained otherwise? This is one of those questions that I would have loved to been able to pose to JRRT because it seems to be a paradox considering his handling of the dead in the supporting literature concerning the history and nature of Eä.
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 12/6/2002 4:49 PM
The marshes have always puzzled me. I used to invision them as an anciet battlefield covered with burial grounds like the Barrowdowns. But then this mysterious swamp overtook and disrupted the graves, mixing the races. The dead appear awake becuase the Marsh disturbed them. (what is Tolkien's obsession with living dead, like the parths of the dead etc.?) But this does not explain why the dead are lighting little lights.
(thinking out loud here) Maybe the dead appear awake because the marsh disturbed them. They defeated Sauran on the battlefield didn't they, maybe the lights are the elves and men's way of claiming the land for good. I don't know why they so captivated Frodo. Then again, the lights could just be reflections of the stars. Gollum doesn't like the stars so he wouldn't like their reflection. Gollum seems to hint that the candles are not always lit. Stars are not always out either.
For a second I thought about dead elves living in the marshed as some twisted form of immortality, but then I recalled that there were Orcs and men there to. So now I am going back to my flooded barrow-down theory.
I'd be interested in your thoughts
keep shining
elanor
* * *
From: Selmo Sent: 12/9/2002 3:44 AM
It could be that the lights of the Dead Marshes have no connection with the corpses (or illusions of corpses) that lie there.
Are they natural phenomina?
I've never seen such things myself, but I'm told that lights, caused by marsh gases, are not uncommon in marshlands of our own world. In our own societies, before the Scientific Age, supernatural causes were ascribed to these lights, given names like will o'the wisp and jack-a-lantern. Their purpose was to misslead travllers.
To the people of Middle Earth, having no knowledge of chemistry and the properties of methane, it would be logical to connect the lights with the images of the dead that lay in the marshes.
The copses themselves are not natural. Gollum tells the hobbits that he has tried to reach them and found they have no real presence in the world. They are an illusion.
It's not suprising that Tolkien uses images of dead soldiers in his tales. He witnessed first-hand the carnage of the Somme battlefields. He had seen thousands of corpses scattered as far as the eye could see. He had lived with dead and dying men around him in the trenches. Those images must have stayed with him all his life.
It's amazing that people can come through such experiences with a little of their sanity left. Many, like Frodo, didn't.
Selmo.
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 12/9/2002 7:15 AM
Is it possible that these souls are trapped in the Marshes, because of the evil of Sauron nearby. Evil could mutilate Elves into Orcs, so why not trap the souls of those that fell in the battle fought there? But then why they light candles, I have no idea. Maybe just to mark their presence there. Or, like Selmo says, the lights are just caused by swamp gasses. I too have heard of this, and actually I wouldn't mind seeing such a thing. It must have kind of an eerie effect.
Lara
* * *
From: scuba smartbody Sent: 12/9/2002 3:50 PM
"He first saw one with the corner of his left eye, a wisp of pale sheen that faded away; but others appeared soon after: some like dimly shining smoke, some like misty flames flickering slowly above unseen candles; here and there they twisted like ghostly sheets unfurled by hidden hands. But neither of his companions spoke a word.
At last Sam could bear it no longer. 'What's all this, Gollum?' he said in a whisper...
Gollum looked up...'yes they are all round us,' he whispered. 'the tricksy lights. Candles of Corpses,..'
What are these candles of corpses? Where do these people come from and how did they get to the marshes? Will they ever arise if they are trapped by the evil of Sauron? What will come of them? How big of a danger did they pose to the three ring bearers?