Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 10:03:39 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 12/21/2002 4:09 PM
It is evident by this time that Frodo is placing a certain amount of emphasis on reviving the Smeagol side of Gollum. He speaks to Gollum in reference to Smeagol, he treats him with a measure of dignity, and he attempts to recall old healthy memories of Smeagol's youth. The problem is ... Sam seems to undermine all this positive treatment by being unnecessarily harsh to Gollum. It seems that everytime they gain footing with Gollum's good side that Sam explodes and brings out "stinker".
My questions are ... "Why didn't Frodo attempt to keep Sam in check? Did he pay attention to the way that Sam associated with Gollum? Do you think it would have made a difference if Frodo would have had a brief conversation with Sam concerning this?
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 12/21/2002 8:52 PM
My initial thought is that the ring may have had a hand in Frodo not rebuking Sam. It may have been the rings way of keeping the more trecherous Gollum alive.
elanor
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 12/22/2002 6:45 PM
Frodo, who was so against showing any pity toward Gollum, is now showing pity and compassion for him by calling him Smeagol and treating him with some respect. They both have a kind of bond by being Ringbearers even though their purposes were so different. Frodo can feel the Power of the Ring and understands Gollum's lust for it.
Sam, on the other hand, can see that the only thing Gollum wants is the Ring and lets Gollum know exactly that is what he suspects by showing him no mercy or compassion and only distrust. He needles Gollum constantly to let him know that he will be constantly alert to any sneaky tricks Gollum may plan.
In a way, this reminds me of Good Cop, Bad Cop where the person being questioned tends to trust the Good Cop because of his compassion. Gollum trusts Frodo and not Sam. However, having each Hobbit give different treatment toward Gollum, seems to fuel both "sides" of Gollum/Smeagol's character.
I think Frodo knew Sam was correct but was hoping that somehow he could change Gollum back to the old Smeagol persona. Maybe deep down Frodo did not say anything because he was hoping that Sam's suspicions and treatment would let Gollum see how he would be treated by everyone if he remained Gollum and did not try to reform himself.
I don't think Sam would have changed his attitude and treatment of Gollum even if Frodo had a talk about it with Sam. Sam just did not trust Gollum, and the more that Smeagol came out, the more Sam distrusted him.
Stormrider
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 10:20 AM
I don't know if Sam could have done any better. He didn't have that keen understanding that Frodo did of mercy and compassion. Frodo didn't have that at the beginning of LotR. He said it was a pity that Bilblo didn't kill him when he had the chance. But when confronted with Gollum, Frodo had the understood the wisdom of Gandalf and heart gave way to mercy. Sam was likely the "2nd" nicest person Gollum had ever known. Sam tries in his own way to deal with him... he's just doesn't know how to be gentle with him.
Musing,
Luthien
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/30/2002 10:08 PM
Yes, Luthien, Sam is probably the second nicest person Gollum has ever met; however, Gollum will never see that side of Sam. Sam has made Frodo's safety his primary concern and Sam sees Gollum as one of the primary threats to Frodo's safety--the other threat being, of course, Sauron. Sam is not about to let down his guard and take any chances that there is a good side to Gollum! Sam wants to keep Gollum's desire for the Ring and his willingness to do anything to get it back foremost in his perception of Gollum. That side of Gollum cannot get clouded in Sam's mind at this point in the story.
I will say more on Sam and his perception of Gollum later when we get into ROTK. I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not read the books yet. (Are there any of those people here at TR? )
Stomrrider
* * *
From: jerseyshore Sent: 1/1/2003 10:55 AM
Sam shows some sympathy for Gollum--but it usually comes when the creature is out of his immediate vicinity. He refers to him as that "wretched creature" several times and seems to have some understanding of the fact that he has been corrupted by his experiences since he found the ring. But when the two interact, Sam's sympathy flies out the window as he is faced with the reality of just how unpleasant, annoying and dangerous Gollum is. I don't think Frodo could have influenced him. He seems to have good intentions to be more tolerant, and kind to the creature, but the physical presence defeats him.
* * *
From: DaleAnn Sent: 1/25/2003 5:42 PM
Until Sam walked in the shoes of Frodo and Gollum, he could not understand the burden of the Ring. In the Mount Doom chapter of RotK, Sam does feel pity for Gollum. He feels pity but his only act of pity was in not killing Gollum.
What Sam provides in TTT is the image of Frodo prior to feeling pity for Gollum. We are able to contrast the two...Good ol' Tolkien and his "pair"s. --DA
* * *
From: -_EndlessDream_- Sent: 1/26/2003 11:55 AM
I totally agree and enjoy your analogy of the good-cop bad-cop scenario with Sam and Frodo, Stormrider.
We've also got to realize Sam's purpose for being here in the first place, simple though very important. His main duty in this quest is to protect Frodo, the ring bearer, from all "possible" dangers or threats. Gollum and his past has proven that no one, not even Deagol could trust him once the ring had "possessed" and polluted his feeble mind. So naturally Sam is VERY defensive in his stance with Gollum as to protect his best friend, Frodo and the ring. And in Sam's eyes, this will never change... as long as Sam is Frodo's personal body guard until the mission of destroying the ring is complete.
I think that Frodo realizes Sam's purpose and that he wants to make sure that he himself is not allowing his compassion for Gollum to cloud his judgement which can be such an easy and dangerous folly, thus allowing Sam to continue with his attitude towards Gollum.
sting
It is evident by this time that Frodo is placing a certain amount of emphasis on reviving the Smeagol side of Gollum. He speaks to Gollum in reference to Smeagol, he treats him with a measure of dignity, and he attempts to recall old healthy memories of Smeagol's youth. The problem is ... Sam seems to undermine all this positive treatment by being unnecessarily harsh to Gollum. It seems that everytime they gain footing with Gollum's good side that Sam explodes and brings out "stinker".
My questions are ... "Why didn't Frodo attempt to keep Sam in check? Did he pay attention to the way that Sam associated with Gollum? Do you think it would have made a difference if Frodo would have had a brief conversation with Sam concerning this?
* * *
From: Elanor Sent: 12/21/2002 8:52 PM
My initial thought is that the ring may have had a hand in Frodo not rebuking Sam. It may have been the rings way of keeping the more trecherous Gollum alive.
elanor
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 12/22/2002 6:45 PM
Frodo, who was so against showing any pity toward Gollum, is now showing pity and compassion for him by calling him Smeagol and treating him with some respect. They both have a kind of bond by being Ringbearers even though their purposes were so different. Frodo can feel the Power of the Ring and understands Gollum's lust for it.
Sam, on the other hand, can see that the only thing Gollum wants is the Ring and lets Gollum know exactly that is what he suspects by showing him no mercy or compassion and only distrust. He needles Gollum constantly to let him know that he will be constantly alert to any sneaky tricks Gollum may plan.
In a way, this reminds me of Good Cop, Bad Cop where the person being questioned tends to trust the Good Cop because of his compassion. Gollum trusts Frodo and not Sam. However, having each Hobbit give different treatment toward Gollum, seems to fuel both "sides" of Gollum/Smeagol's character.
I think Frodo knew Sam was correct but was hoping that somehow he could change Gollum back to the old Smeagol persona. Maybe deep down Frodo did not say anything because he was hoping that Sam's suspicions and treatment would let Gollum see how he would be treated by everyone if he remained Gollum and did not try to reform himself.
I don't think Sam would have changed his attitude and treatment of Gollum even if Frodo had a talk about it with Sam. Sam just did not trust Gollum, and the more that Smeagol came out, the more Sam distrusted him.
Stormrider
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 12/30/2002 10:20 AM
I don't know if Sam could have done any better. He didn't have that keen understanding that Frodo did of mercy and compassion. Frodo didn't have that at the beginning of LotR. He said it was a pity that Bilblo didn't kill him when he had the chance. But when confronted with Gollum, Frodo had the understood the wisdom of Gandalf and heart gave way to mercy. Sam was likely the "2nd" nicest person Gollum had ever known. Sam tries in his own way to deal with him... he's just doesn't know how to be gentle with him.
Musing,
Luthien
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 12/30/2002 10:08 PM
Yes, Luthien, Sam is probably the second nicest person Gollum has ever met; however, Gollum will never see that side of Sam. Sam has made Frodo's safety his primary concern and Sam sees Gollum as one of the primary threats to Frodo's safety--the other threat being, of course, Sauron. Sam is not about to let down his guard and take any chances that there is a good side to Gollum! Sam wants to keep Gollum's desire for the Ring and his willingness to do anything to get it back foremost in his perception of Gollum. That side of Gollum cannot get clouded in Sam's mind at this point in the story.
I will say more on Sam and his perception of Gollum later when we get into ROTK. I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not read the books yet. (Are there any of those people here at TR? )
Stomrrider
* * *
From: jerseyshore Sent: 1/1/2003 10:55 AM
Sam shows some sympathy for Gollum--but it usually comes when the creature is out of his immediate vicinity. He refers to him as that "wretched creature" several times and seems to have some understanding of the fact that he has been corrupted by his experiences since he found the ring. But when the two interact, Sam's sympathy flies out the window as he is faced with the reality of just how unpleasant, annoying and dangerous Gollum is. I don't think Frodo could have influenced him. He seems to have good intentions to be more tolerant, and kind to the creature, but the physical presence defeats him.
* * *
From: DaleAnn Sent: 1/25/2003 5:42 PM
Until Sam walked in the shoes of Frodo and Gollum, he could not understand the burden of the Ring. In the Mount Doom chapter of RotK, Sam does feel pity for Gollum. He feels pity but his only act of pity was in not killing Gollum.
What Sam provides in TTT is the image of Frodo prior to feeling pity for Gollum. We are able to contrast the two...Good ol' Tolkien and his "pair"s. --DA
* * *
From: -_EndlessDream_- Sent: 1/26/2003 11:55 AM
I totally agree and enjoy your analogy of the good-cop bad-cop scenario with Sam and Frodo, Stormrider.
We've also got to realize Sam's purpose for being here in the first place, simple though very important. His main duty in this quest is to protect Frodo, the ring bearer, from all "possible" dangers or threats. Gollum and his past has proven that no one, not even Deagol could trust him once the ring had "possessed" and polluted his feeble mind. So naturally Sam is VERY defensive in his stance with Gollum as to protect his best friend, Frodo and the ring. And in Sam's eyes, this will never change... as long as Sam is Frodo's personal body guard until the mission of destroying the ring is complete.
I think that Frodo realizes Sam's purpose and that he wants to make sure that he himself is not allowing his compassion for Gollum to cloud his judgement which can be such an easy and dangerous folly, thus allowing Sam to continue with his attitude towards Gollum.
sting