Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 10:30:40 GMT -6
From: DaleAnn (Original Message) Sent: 3/1/2003 3:38 PM
I looked over this chapter this morning and was struck by the detailed description of the landscape. As a gardener, I recognize many of the plants as those that are labeled "mediterranean". Do you think this and the detailed description of the landcape have significance? Also, apparent are ruins of a civilization. Could any real life area of the world be the "model" or "inspiration" for the landscape?
--DA
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/9/2003 8:57 AM
DA-
There might be significance to the "Mediterranean" feel of of Ithilien. I've heard that Tolkien often modeled people of ME after ancient cultures. I would be interested in knowing what you or other scholars think.
For me, however, I see it as a way to include within the narrative the geographic (and climate) changes occurring on the journey. These changes are relative to what his own experience from "England to southern Italy/Greece/Turkey" would be (I think of Lebanon with cedars and cypress). Of course in North America, we would see as similar transition with other naturally occurring vegetation.
Luthien (LovesBeren)
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 3/10/2003 5:43 PM
For some reason, I keep getting a picture of The Hanging Gardens of Babylon. The lushness, fragrance, and exotic feel maked the Hanging Garden click in my mind as I read it.
I know the Hanging Gardens were in the midst of some arid regions in Mesopotamia back in King Nebucaddnezer's time and he built them by using aquaducts to water the gardens. He did this for his wife, who thought Mesopotamia was quite boring and ugly. By the way, this region is where Baghdad, Iraq is now located!
Although Tolkien did not mention any aquaducts in Ithilien, his rich, flowering, lush description did mention some springs. And Ithilien in this chapter of TTT is held by the Enemy and is a sharp contrast to the desolation and dry vacantness of Mordor just as the Hanging Gardens were surrounded by arid lands.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/11/2003 4:16 AM
The description of the road, at least, in the beginning, when it isn't fallen in ruin yet, makes me think of the Roman highways: broad, straight, paved. And as Ithilien is in the South of Middle Earth, it could be based on the meditarrenean areas. He lived in England for most of his life, and the meditarrenean countries are called "the warm sunny south" here in Europe.
Taking this even further, Africa is "underneath" the European south, and I sometimes think that Harad is based loosely, or more, on Africa: you have the elephants, and the swarty, brown people. I have always pictured the Southrons as Moroccons (in their appearance), and they also look like that in the movie. Morocco is situated, as you probably know, in Northern Africa.
I agree with Luthien, I've also heard that he had modeled people of ME after ancient cultures. Thinking about his motives (wanting to create an English myth), it seems logic that he has based his peoples on cultures that have existed. By the way: the Shire looks like the English countryside in my imaginings. The hobbitholes, and the few houses the Hobbits have build, seem similar to English cottages, but then actually Hobbitish cottages lol...
Alaere
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/11/2003 11:42 AM
Alaere - I always thought that Tolkien must have modeled the Numenoreans after the Romans, but I was afraid to say it in my post since I do not have evidence supporting that assertion. I am glad you said it. StormRiders' post also gives me confidence to post what I think too. There are similarities in the rise and fall of the Roman empire. I also feel like they borrowed much from the Greeks who were (in my opinion) more ethereal like the elves. I talked to someone once who thought the Numenoreans were modeled more like Alexander the Great's Empire (Macedonia-Greek Culture). I am not sure anymore which view (or any) I feel is better. However, what makes me think it's more likely the Romans over the Macedonians (Greeks) are the ruins strewn across middle earth much like the Romans building roads and structures all over Europe, Asia and North Africa and that much of their culture was inspired by others (antiquity).
What do you think?
Luthien
I looked over this chapter this morning and was struck by the detailed description of the landscape. As a gardener, I recognize many of the plants as those that are labeled "mediterranean". Do you think this and the detailed description of the landcape have significance? Also, apparent are ruins of a civilization. Could any real life area of the world be the "model" or "inspiration" for the landscape?
--DA
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/9/2003 8:57 AM
DA-
There might be significance to the "Mediterranean" feel of of Ithilien. I've heard that Tolkien often modeled people of ME after ancient cultures. I would be interested in knowing what you or other scholars think.
For me, however, I see it as a way to include within the narrative the geographic (and climate) changes occurring on the journey. These changes are relative to what his own experience from "England to southern Italy/Greece/Turkey" would be (I think of Lebanon with cedars and cypress). Of course in North America, we would see as similar transition with other naturally occurring vegetation.
Luthien (LovesBeren)
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 3/10/2003 5:43 PM
For some reason, I keep getting a picture of The Hanging Gardens of Babylon. The lushness, fragrance, and exotic feel maked the Hanging Garden click in my mind as I read it.
I know the Hanging Gardens were in the midst of some arid regions in Mesopotamia back in King Nebucaddnezer's time and he built them by using aquaducts to water the gardens. He did this for his wife, who thought Mesopotamia was quite boring and ugly. By the way, this region is where Baghdad, Iraq is now located!
Although Tolkien did not mention any aquaducts in Ithilien, his rich, flowering, lush description did mention some springs. And Ithilien in this chapter of TTT is held by the Enemy and is a sharp contrast to the desolation and dry vacantness of Mordor just as the Hanging Gardens were surrounded by arid lands.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/11/2003 4:16 AM
The description of the road, at least, in the beginning, when it isn't fallen in ruin yet, makes me think of the Roman highways: broad, straight, paved. And as Ithilien is in the South of Middle Earth, it could be based on the meditarrenean areas. He lived in England for most of his life, and the meditarrenean countries are called "the warm sunny south" here in Europe.
Taking this even further, Africa is "underneath" the European south, and I sometimes think that Harad is based loosely, or more, on Africa: you have the elephants, and the swarty, brown people. I have always pictured the Southrons as Moroccons (in their appearance), and they also look like that in the movie. Morocco is situated, as you probably know, in Northern Africa.
I agree with Luthien, I've also heard that he had modeled people of ME after ancient cultures. Thinking about his motives (wanting to create an English myth), it seems logic that he has based his peoples on cultures that have existed. By the way: the Shire looks like the English countryside in my imaginings. The hobbitholes, and the few houses the Hobbits have build, seem similar to English cottages, but then actually Hobbitish cottages lol...
Alaere
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 3/11/2003 11:42 AM
Alaere - I always thought that Tolkien must have modeled the Numenoreans after the Romans, but I was afraid to say it in my post since I do not have evidence supporting that assertion. I am glad you said it. StormRiders' post also gives me confidence to post what I think too. There are similarities in the rise and fall of the Roman empire. I also feel like they borrowed much from the Greeks who were (in my opinion) more ethereal like the elves. I talked to someone once who thought the Numenoreans were modeled more like Alexander the Great's Empire (Macedonia-Greek Culture). I am not sure anymore which view (or any) I feel is better. However, what makes me think it's more likely the Romans over the Macedonians (Greeks) are the ruins strewn across middle earth much like the Romans building roads and structures all over Europe, Asia and North Africa and that much of their culture was inspired by others (antiquity).
What do you think?
Luthien