Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 10:36:27 GMT -6
From: Algamesh_of_Arnor (Original Message) Sent: 3/6/2003 12:56 AM
In our Week Six reading, we discover a passage where Faramir is describing the fate of Minas Ithil and how the Nazgul came to rule the city in the absence of Sauron. He speaks of how the residents were "fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall."
So ... are we to assume that Minas Morgul hasn't any permanent residents other than the Wraiths? How do you imagine day-to-day aspects of the ruined city? How would you classify Minas Morgul ... do you believe that it is a true city or simply an outpost for soldiery or ... something else altogether?
Also, is it surprising that Gondor did not assault Minas Morgul during the long absense of Sauron? What are the reasons for this apparent inactivity when the Dark Lord was gone and not a threat in the region?
* * *
From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 3/12/2003 1:59 AM
Surprising? Hardly... Who would want to go near Minas Morgul even it had been empty for a 1000 years (or more)? Unless there was a very pressing reason, perhaps. The taint itself would be enough to keep "good folk" away for many centuries, I think.
* * *
From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/12/2003 9:24 AM
My understanding is that Minas Ithil was the "sister" outpost to Minas Anor when Osgiliath was the "capital" city of Gondor. Minas Ithil had the Tower of the Moon and Minas Anor had the Tower of the Sun. After Osgiliath was ruined during the "kin-strife", they moved the rule to Minas Anor(renamed Minas Tirith). After the great plague, there weren't enough men left to man the eastern outposts around Mordor. After the fall of Arnor and the destruction Angmar, the Nazgul returned to Mordor. About 20 years later, they assaulted Minas Ithil and captured it(renamed Minas Morgul). This was around 2000 T.A. About 50 years later, the last King of Gondor rode to Minas Morgul to engage the Witch-King in personal combat and was never heard from again. Since that time, the Nazgul had controlled Minas Morgul. After Sauron's return, it became a base of operations for his assault on Ithilien and Osgiliath. Since the events of LOTR take place around 3020 TA, it does appear that the Nazgul were the only permanent residents for a little over 1000 years.
-- Rusco
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/19/2003 9:42 AM
Further on in the story, Sam makes this statement about Minas Morgul:
"There is something still alive in that place, something with eyes, or a seeing mind, if you take me; and the longer we stay in one spot, the sooner it will get on to us. Come on, Mr. Frodo!"
So, even if it was empty, or only inhabited by the Nazgul (which would be terrifying enough for little me), there was this unnerving feeling of a hidden presence, of being spied. Also, the Orcs, or other foul servants of the Dark Lord (at least, what was left of them), were still there, roaming in Mordor, I guess, while Sauron was, let's say, "on vacation". Even if all the different Orc tribes would be just fighting among eachother, one of the troops could have taken Minas Morgul as a base (if they dared). So maybe it wasn't completely empty altogether.
Anyway, empty or not, as Pearlbloom says, the taint itself would probably be enough to keep the good folk away.
Alaere
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 3/26/2003 5:25 AM
I don't think Minas Morgul can be seen as a city anymore. I think it really is empty, except for the presence of the 9, and maybe an Orc camp build up inside the walls (and far enough from the Nazguls' residence), or at the Mordor side outside. But to have a city, one will need citizens, and this is what is missing in Minas Morgul.
The Nazgul are Sauron's main commanders in his armies. They weren't interested having their own city. They prepared the return of their master, guarding the entrances to his dark land and the ruins of his fortress, so everything could be rebuilt unnoticed. They stayed there, turning the fair city into something horrible. The Nazgul are neither living nor death, so they will not care much for everything living (or dying) in the valley, and let everything rot, which causes the smell.
The Orcs are only used as soldiers. If Sauron just would let them wander around freely, I think they would act as groups of robbers. They don't have the tendency to settle down and begin their own city, as humans would. I think they were gathered by the Nazgul, and had to live under their command. They guard the whole place, and engage in assaults on the Gondorians, all under command of the bosses.
As for Sauron's human slaves, they worked on the fields in the East, far from the borders of the free lands. I don't think they would endure long in the presence of former-human Ring Wraiths, and would try to escape when they are this close to the free lands. The Harad soldiers all were brought to the Black Gates. Sauron had convinced them with lies to fight for them, but I doubt they knew the whole truth about the Nazgul and other foul creatures.
I see Minas Morgul as a military base, protecting a weak spot in the walls formed by the Mountains of Shadow, and is also used as a second gate to Mordor. The towers on the mountaintops may also point in that direction.
Orgulas
In our Week Six reading, we discover a passage where Faramir is describing the fate of Minas Ithil and how the Nazgul came to rule the city in the absence of Sauron. He speaks of how the residents were "fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall."
So ... are we to assume that Minas Morgul hasn't any permanent residents other than the Wraiths? How do you imagine day-to-day aspects of the ruined city? How would you classify Minas Morgul ... do you believe that it is a true city or simply an outpost for soldiery or ... something else altogether?
Also, is it surprising that Gondor did not assault Minas Morgul during the long absense of Sauron? What are the reasons for this apparent inactivity when the Dark Lord was gone and not a threat in the region?
* * *
From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 3/12/2003 1:59 AM
Surprising? Hardly... Who would want to go near Minas Morgul even it had been empty for a 1000 years (or more)? Unless there was a very pressing reason, perhaps. The taint itself would be enough to keep "good folk" away for many centuries, I think.
* * *
From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/12/2003 9:24 AM
My understanding is that Minas Ithil was the "sister" outpost to Minas Anor when Osgiliath was the "capital" city of Gondor. Minas Ithil had the Tower of the Moon and Minas Anor had the Tower of the Sun. After Osgiliath was ruined during the "kin-strife", they moved the rule to Minas Anor(renamed Minas Tirith). After the great plague, there weren't enough men left to man the eastern outposts around Mordor. After the fall of Arnor and the destruction Angmar, the Nazgul returned to Mordor. About 20 years later, they assaulted Minas Ithil and captured it(renamed Minas Morgul). This was around 2000 T.A. About 50 years later, the last King of Gondor rode to Minas Morgul to engage the Witch-King in personal combat and was never heard from again. Since that time, the Nazgul had controlled Minas Morgul. After Sauron's return, it became a base of operations for his assault on Ithilien and Osgiliath. Since the events of LOTR take place around 3020 TA, it does appear that the Nazgul were the only permanent residents for a little over 1000 years.
-- Rusco
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 3/19/2003 9:42 AM
Further on in the story, Sam makes this statement about Minas Morgul:
"There is something still alive in that place, something with eyes, or a seeing mind, if you take me; and the longer we stay in one spot, the sooner it will get on to us. Come on, Mr. Frodo!"
So, even if it was empty, or only inhabited by the Nazgul (which would be terrifying enough for little me), there was this unnerving feeling of a hidden presence, of being spied. Also, the Orcs, or other foul servants of the Dark Lord (at least, what was left of them), were still there, roaming in Mordor, I guess, while Sauron was, let's say, "on vacation". Even if all the different Orc tribes would be just fighting among eachother, one of the troops could have taken Minas Morgul as a base (if they dared). So maybe it wasn't completely empty altogether.
Anyway, empty or not, as Pearlbloom says, the taint itself would probably be enough to keep the good folk away.
Alaere
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 3/26/2003 5:25 AM
I don't think Minas Morgul can be seen as a city anymore. I think it really is empty, except for the presence of the 9, and maybe an Orc camp build up inside the walls (and far enough from the Nazguls' residence), or at the Mordor side outside. But to have a city, one will need citizens, and this is what is missing in Minas Morgul.
The Nazgul are Sauron's main commanders in his armies. They weren't interested having their own city. They prepared the return of their master, guarding the entrances to his dark land and the ruins of his fortress, so everything could be rebuilt unnoticed. They stayed there, turning the fair city into something horrible. The Nazgul are neither living nor death, so they will not care much for everything living (or dying) in the valley, and let everything rot, which causes the smell.
The Orcs are only used as soldiers. If Sauron just would let them wander around freely, I think they would act as groups of robbers. They don't have the tendency to settle down and begin their own city, as humans would. I think they were gathered by the Nazgul, and had to live under their command. They guard the whole place, and engage in assaults on the Gondorians, all under command of the bosses.
As for Sauron's human slaves, they worked on the fields in the East, far from the borders of the free lands. I don't think they would endure long in the presence of former-human Ring Wraiths, and would try to escape when they are this close to the free lands. The Harad soldiers all were brought to the Black Gates. Sauron had convinced them with lies to fight for them, but I doubt they knew the whole truth about the Nazgul and other foul creatures.
I see Minas Morgul as a military base, protecting a weak spot in the walls formed by the Mountains of Shadow, and is also used as a second gate to Mordor. The towers on the mountaintops may also point in that direction.
Orgulas