Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 10:48:49 GMT -6
From: Algamesh_of_Arnor (Original Message) Sent: 3/9/2003 5:58 PM
In Book IV, Chapter 7, Faramir makes reference to a population known as the "Men of the White Mountains". Who are these people? From whom are they descended? Anyone care to take a crack at this one ... ?
As opposed to creating another thread, let's also ponder the staves that Faramir gave the Hobbits in continuance of their journey. He states that they are crafted from the lebethron tree and that a "virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning". So, who is setting these virtues? Sounds an awful lot like wizardry to me. Are there possibly other sources of magic within the societies of Middle-earth to which we are not properly introduced? Your thoughts?
-Algamesh
* * *
From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/10/2003 6:16 AM
Algy, you have stumbled upon something that I have been looking for, as obscure a reference as it may be.
As we know, Tolkien consciously chose nearly every word in LotR. For some time now, I have been wondering if Tolkien had a particular purpose (symbolism) for each authentic, real life plant he mentions.
Lebethron is a made up plant -- right? According to Didier Willis, a french linguist, "No". He believes it is the Oak, specifically a Spanish Oak. The pdf files at the end of this link are easier to read.
translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.jrrvf.com/~hisweloke/site/articles/langues/textes/mornellui.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDidier%2BWillis%2Blebethron%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
Here are links to various traditions on the symbolism of the Oak:
www.wooddragonarts.freeserve.co.uk/Oak%20Duir%20Symbolism.htm
www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/LP/lp27.htm
www.keltria.org/journal/s-fre-oa.htm
I think what these have in common is "strength to endure", which is something that Frodo and Sam will have to find in order to "find and return". Other virtues, such as sacrifice, abundance and protection are also, included among others in the links above.
Now then, why didn't Tolkien say staves of oak? Why did he hide it within Lebethron? I think it is percisely because he wanted an example of actual, real life tree symbolism, but didn't want to be blunt.
Now, we can get really esoteric and say that the Men of the White Mountains represent the people of one or more of these ancient traditions. But, I don't want to go there...lol. --DA
In Book IV, Chapter 7, Faramir makes reference to a population known as the "Men of the White Mountains". Who are these people? From whom are they descended? Anyone care to take a crack at this one ... ?
As opposed to creating another thread, let's also ponder the staves that Faramir gave the Hobbits in continuance of their journey. He states that they are crafted from the lebethron tree and that a "virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning". So, who is setting these virtues? Sounds an awful lot like wizardry to me. Are there possibly other sources of magic within the societies of Middle-earth to which we are not properly introduced? Your thoughts?
-Algamesh
* * *
From: DaleAnn Sent: 3/10/2003 6:16 AM
Algy, you have stumbled upon something that I have been looking for, as obscure a reference as it may be.
As we know, Tolkien consciously chose nearly every word in LotR. For some time now, I have been wondering if Tolkien had a particular purpose (symbolism) for each authentic, real life plant he mentions.
Lebethron is a made up plant -- right? According to Didier Willis, a french linguist, "No". He believes it is the Oak, specifically a Spanish Oak. The pdf files at the end of this link are easier to read.
translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.jrrvf.com/~hisweloke/site/articles/langues/textes/mornellui.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDidier%2BWillis%2Blebethron%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8
Here are links to various traditions on the symbolism of the Oak:
www.wooddragonarts.freeserve.co.uk/Oak%20Duir%20Symbolism.htm
www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/LP/lp27.htm
www.keltria.org/journal/s-fre-oa.htm
I think what these have in common is "strength to endure", which is something that Frodo and Sam will have to find in order to "find and return". Other virtues, such as sacrifice, abundance and protection are also, included among others in the links above.
Now then, why didn't Tolkien say staves of oak? Why did he hide it within Lebethron? I think it is percisely because he wanted an example of actual, real life tree symbolism, but didn't want to be blunt.
Now, we can get really esoteric and say that the Men of the White Mountains represent the people of one or more of these ancient traditions. But, I don't want to go there...lol. --DA