|
Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 11:24:58 GMT -6
From: Algamesh_of_Arnor (Original Message) Sent: 3/24/2003 12:51 AM During our Week Seven material, we discover the following passage: Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Smeagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. Lots of interesting things here ...
Is it surprising that Gollum was able to work a deal with Shelob? Gollum never appeared to me to be so savvy at negotiating and Shelob is presented as an entity who eats first and asks questions later ... what do you think?
Does Gollum worship Shelob from a sense of awe, fear, or maybe he finds future advantage in this arrangement? Any other explanations or possibilities?
The final statement in the above passage really seems significant to me. It seems to indicate that Shelob's influence on Gollum is much more binding than that of Sauron. The statement leads us to believe that Gollum's redemption is beyond his grasp due to the influence of Shelob ... "her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret." Do you agree with this presumption?
Regardless of everyone's independent conclusions, I believe that we can all agree that Shelob has had great impact on Gollum. Any other examples or commentaries?
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 11:26:42 GMT -6
From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/24/2003 12:48 PM More good questions. As to the question of Shelob not eating Gollum, I'm not sure he was a very appetizing choice. Even the orcs seem to find him rather loathesome.
As to the question of Gollum "negotiating" a deal with Shelob, I always thought of Gollum as a rather cunning and crafty creature. Maybe not the brightest bulb on the tree, but still quite the conniving little villain.
As to the question of Gollum worshipping Shelob, I always thought of this as feigned. He was just using her for his own purposes. I thought he planned on using the ring to kill her after she disposed of the hobbits.
-- Rusco * * * From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/29/2003 2:02 AM Well, It seems I have no simple answers, as always. I certainly hope none are bored or annoyed by my opinions, but it seems so many elements are entwined it takes a paragraph or two to explain my point. Sorry.
I agree with Rusco 100% about Gollum's worship. Gollum only worshiped the Ring. But as to the details of how he managed to talk his way out of becoming a silk-sacked snack, I think we have to return to the One Ring's power, and residual power. "The Understanding of Tongues, probably Black Speech focused." So not directly stated until "The Two Towers page 344, The Choices of Master Samwise": "He listened. The Orcs from the tunnel and the others marching down had sighted one another, and both parties were now hurrying and shouting. He heard them both clearly, and understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed. he understood and translated the thought to himself." So many implications throughout the tales, from the "The Hobbit page 94 Riddles in the Dark" (Bibo's escape from Goblin Town's back door) We know neither Bibo or Sam ever studied Goblin/Orkish.
And from "The Hobbit page 155 Flies and Spiders" "In the silence and stillness of the wood he realised that these loathsome creatures were speaking to one another. Their voices were a sort of thin creaking and hissing, but he could make out many words that they said." So clearly the Ring gives the gift of Gab, both hearing and speaking, as the Spiders understood Bilbos insults quite well. And I know Bilbo never studied Spider, as I doubt many who spoke Westron lived long enough to teach the Spiders.
That brings us to Gollum, how long does this gift last after possesing the One Ring?
We have this starved, black, hearted sack of bones trying to leave Mordor as quickly as possible, suddenly he is dicovered by Shelob. So granted less than a mouthful, but I doubt prey was regular enough for her taste knowing her mom's unsatiated hunger from the Silmarillion. Some how, one of them, or both of them managed to get the point across. I suspect it was Gollum, because of the descirtption of him worshipping her darkness. In that moment to save his neck offered or promised a sacrifice to her not ever intending to return. To conclude my overlong but hopefully entertaining and thought provoking post, I need to prove residual power left by the One Ring. Not to be a spoiler, none of the Ringbears remain in Middle-earth in the end, they must all find healing elsewhere, as there is none for them in M-e. So apparently quite a bit of left over, a great example is Gollum, how many years did he not have his precioussss, and yet at 500 years old and aging he was still full of strength based on his malice and lust for the Ring. Pretty potent fallout I think. Bilbo Baggin's "The Hobbit" pg 155 * * * From: magpie Sent: 3/29/2003 11:10 AM Iarwain, I am never bored or annoyed by your opinions. I often feel it is better to take the time to fully explain one's thinking than to have people misunderstand or have to ask for more info. And like I told Linda, "Nothing's worth saying unless it takes a long time to say." (An axiom I'm more likely to follow than "Brevity is the soul of wit." ) I had forgotten about that passage about Sam understanding the orcs while he wore the ring, even though I read it just a few weeks ago. And I hadn't connected it with Bilbo and the spiders, and Gollum and the Shelob. So you made a nice point. Magpie * * * From: Kendal Sent: 6/14/2008 5:49 PM Shelob and Gollum -- intriguing topic, how did they communicate? While the Spiders of Mirkwood have voices, and language, in "The Hobbit" at least, Shelob is mute in LotR. How does Gollum "worship" her, how does he communicate with her. When he promises to bring her meat, does she understand what he says? In real life, spiders communicate with pheremones, gestures, and touches to distinguish themselves from mere items of food. But, alas, JRRT does not directly tell us how Gollum keeps from being added to the bill of fare. He does suggest, perhaps, that there is some sort of direct communication by "will power" that allows the two to form some sort of working relationship: "he [Gollum] had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret. And he had promised to bring her food." (TT, hb ver. pp 332-33)
From this quote, I get the impression that Shelob could understand the thought and intent of Gollum, and he could understand her sufficiently to know that her "lust" was always for food. Being of little nutritional value himself, his offer to bring her better fare insured his continued survival in her presence.
Earlier, I used to think that Gollum's possession of the One Ring had given him, as it will give Sam in chpt 10 "The Choices of Master Samwise," the ability to understand other languages, and perhaps this ability allowed him to communicate with Shelob. But the Great Spider has no audible tongue, no language to be translated, so I guess I'll have to opt out of that "explanation" and assume that the two communicated by the contact of their wills/ minds directly.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Nov 30, 2010 12:15:08 GMT -6
Just looking over these ancient pages, lots of good stuff here...
Hmmm, Iarwain brings up an interesting bit with his assumption that the ring gave Bilbo the ability to understand and speak to the Spiders of Mirkwood. This is based, I think, on a comparison of the Ring's linguistic effects as revealed by Sam's ability to understand Orc-speech when he wore/ carried it at Cirith Ungol.
I think what Iarwain then implies is that the residue of the Ring's power allows Gollum (in LOTR) to communicate linguistically with Shelob. Though I agree with Kendal's analysis that this communication must have been only "telepathic" as Shelob does not seem capable of vocalic utterance (at least the text gives no examples of her messages in quotations as a signal that real speech is being formed and uttered).
But, did Bilbo's ring give him the exclusive ability to converse with his lesser Spiders in Mirkwood? The problem I have with this scenario is two-fold:
1. the ring Bilbo found is not yet the Great Ring of LOTR, it is a "luck ring," a ring of invisibility that increases Bilbo's boldness/ self confidence to the point where he becomes quite an effective burglar/ adventurer. But I don't recall any instance in The Hobbit, where this ring is said to confer linguistic understanding.
2. when the ring-bearing Bilbo speaks with the Spiders of Mirkwood, is he the only one who can hear/ understand them? Do we have any direct statement in The Hobbit that allows us to assume the Dwarves could not hear or understand them as well?
When Bilbo taunts the Spiders with his song, Tolkien, as narrator says "Quite apart from the stones no spider has ever liked being called Attercop, and Tomnoddy of course is insulting to anybody." (Annotated Hobbit, "Flies and Spiders," p. 212, my emphasis) This suggests to me that at some time in the past, someone other than Bilbo has called the Spiders "Attercop." So, someone, earlier in time has been talking to the Spiders, and insulting them. Apparently, no ring is needed to speak with the Spiders?
It is also a fact that we are dealing, in The Hobbit, with English as a default common tongue, even for the "enemy races." It is spoken by the Trolls (whom the Dwarves can understands as well as Bilbo -- who has no ring at this point in the narrative); the Goblins (who speak easily with the Dwarves/ Hobbit/ Wizard); the Eagles, and even the Dragon. It seems reasonable from this, that the Spiders likewise spoke a sibilant form of English, audible and understandable by the Dwarves as well as the ring-equipped Bilbo.
At this early time in JRRT's writing (1930s), I don't think Bilbo's "luck ring" had anything like the powers the One Ring of Frodo will possess (1950s), nor is The Hobbit meant to be as "realistic" as LOTR -- where each species/ race has its own language.
So, I get the very strong feeling that Bilbo's "luck ring" was not required for him to speak with the Mirkwood Spiders, and by extension, I don't think that the LOTR Great Ring was necessarily responsible for Gollum's ability to understand Shelob. Nor, does Tolkien tell us that Sam was able to understand (in a speech-like pattern) the thoughts of Shelob, even though he had the One Ring and it did give him immediate understanding of the various Orc tongues. Surely if Tolkien wanted us to know that Shelob could "speak," he would have given her some lines with Sam? But Sam never hints that he can "speak" with or listen to the speech of Shelob.
______________________
*I think in keeping with the new, more serious tone of LOTR, there are no "speaking" animals in this text -- though we do have the anomaly of a fox "thinking to himself" in the very early stages of LOTR -- when Frodo and his companions spend a night outdoors in the Shire. Even here, the fox does not seem to speak/ vocalize aloud, we are simply made aware of its thought. Otherwise we still have speaking Eagles at the end of LOTR, and speaking Ents, but none else? No ravens, no thrush, no spiders, not even Shelob?
|
|
|
Post by Desi Baggins on Dec 6, 2010 7:19:15 GMT -6
I assumed that the spiders were talking in common tongue and that Bilbo and the dwarves could understand them...
I didn't get the feeling that Gollum had a relationship with Shelob...I think Shelob would have went after Gollum too be he was probably sneakier and Frodo probably looked more appetizing...
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 6, 2010 19:40:21 GMT -6
I agree that the spiders were speaking the common tongue...granted in a much raspier, grating tone, but common nontheless. I like Andorinha's reasoning that the luck ring did not give Bilbo and special linguistic abilities--which would also mean Gollum didn't have them because of the Ring either.
Now if I remember correctly, Shelob and Gollum must have spoken. Gollum had an agreement with Shelob to bring her more meat. I remember the orcs saying something to that effect. Also Gollum was sneaking off as Sam, Frodo, and he got closer to Cirith Ungol and Shelob's Lair. Gollum must have been letting her know he was back and soon bringing some specially nice treats for her ladyship. Now I just have to find these passages.
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 7, 2010 7:10:37 GMT -6
As to The Ring giving special powers to understand the evil tongues, I think that it enhanced the hearing so things that normal people couldn't hear, could if they were wearing The Ring. From Iarwain above: I think this was just an enhancement of Bilbo's hearing so he could pick up on the creaking, hissing "words" of the Spiders in the Common Tongue. After all, Bilbo sang back to them in Common Tongue and not Black Speech or Spider-speak. Or was he singing in a dark tongue and not realizing it? But the Dwarves heard him singing didn't they? But to my surprise, I just read Iarwain above and found this quote he chose: ---------- Here are the other quotes I wanted to post from The Two Towers: In The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, Gollum allows Sam and Frodo to take a rest after they have climbed all the stairs. Sam and Frodo are talking about the stories and people being heroes and not realizing it and then Sam says When Gollum returns (same Chapter), he sees Frodo asleep with his head in a sleeping Sam's lap and has a moment of guilt and saddness as he puts his hand out to caress Frodo's knee. This startles Sam who calls Gollum a "sneak" which Gollum latches on to to explain his vanishing act. Then in Shelob's Lair, there is a passage that states: Also in Shelob's Lair, the Orcs talk about Shelob having seen her "Sneak" the night before (which is when Gollum vanished in the quote I mentioned above). From these passages, we can assume Gollum had slunk off to talk to Shelob to let her know he was bringing a special sweet treat for her. From Iarwain's post above about The Ring giving its wearer the ability to understand Dark Languages, Gollum could understand and communicate with Shelob like Bilbo could understand and sing to the Spiders in Mirkwood. I wonder how Gollum convinced Shelob not to eat him in the first place. Surely she would have tried to sneak up behind him and sting him before he could get a word out. But maybe there was a scent or aura about him she could sense or see that said "BAD TO EAT!" which gave Gollum his opportunity to work his deal with her.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 7, 2010 11:41:04 GMT -6
Hi Desi, Hi SR!
My primary point is simply that in The Hobbit, I believe, we have quite a different ring from that which Frodo inherits in LOTR. I can find no sentence of evidence in The Hobbit that mentions any auditory impact of the ring he took from Gollum. Tolkien never tells us that this ring "sharpens" Bilbo's hearing, nor does Tolkien ever say that the ring gave Bilbo an "understanding of tongues." In fact Bilbo almost gets himself into trouble on a "still and quiet day" because he neither sees nor hears the Spiders as he enters their nesting area. "Suddenly he saw, too, that there were spiders huge and horrible sitting in the branches above him, and ring or no ring, he trembled with fear lest they should discover him." (The Hobbit, annt ver. "Flies and Spiders," p. 209) So here we do have good evidence that the ring Bilbo has confers no sharper hearing, no sharper vision, and it takes him some time, even on a still and silent day, to even make out the faint Spider noises as speech: "... and in the silence and stillness of the wood he realised that these loathsome creatures were speaking one to another." (The Hobbit, annt ver, p. 209)
But, in Sam's experience, when he put on the (now enhanced) Great Ring in LOTR: "The World changed, and a single moment of time was filled with an hour of thought. At once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was dimmed..." (TT, hbv, "Choices of Master Samwise," p.343
Bilbo could have used that sort of sharpened hearing in Mirkwood, but, quite apparently it was beyond the power of his ring, he had to strain to hear what the Spiders were saying, even though all about him was "silent and still."
On the other hand, Sam's hearing is so acute that it causes him to misjudge distance, he thinks he must be right on top of the Orcs, only to find as he rounds a corner that they are still a goodly way ahead of him.
This lack of auditory "sharpening" in Bilbo's ring encourages me to persist in seeing The Hobbit ring as quite different from that found in LOTR. From this point I take a bit of a leap to assume that if Tolkien neglects also to tell us in The Hobbit that the ring confers an understanding of tongues, it is most likely because Tolkien had not yet come up with the idea either. So, from my reading of The Hobbit, I can find no "proving" statement that allows me to see the ring as conferring either enhanced hearing, or language understanding.
By the time we get to Sam at Cirith Ungol, Tolkien has to deliberately introduce these two themes, he has to inform his readers that the Ring now confers both acute hearing, and the understanding of tongues.
Now, back to Shelob, what I am missing are "quoted" speeches from her. She never "says" a word, does she? The Spiders of Mirkwood use speech quotations when they talk among themselves or to Bilbo: " 'What nasty thick skins they have to be sure, but I'll wager there is good juice inside.' 'Aye,they'll make fine eating, when they've hung a bit," said another." (Annt Hobbit, p. 209)
These Mirkwood Spiders talk to each other, later they talk with Bilbo -- but for Shelob we have no quotation marks, she communicates with Gollum, he "understands" her, he can safely interact with her, promise her food, but we never have a quotation marked utterance from her to Gollum, or from Gollum to her. Must be telepathy? When Sam, without the Great Ring in his possession, fights Shelob, he does not "understand her tongue," though he vocalizes at her, as we might shout at an attacking bear, but she never answers. No quotation marks... Apparently, in LOTR this Great Spider is not capable of speaking, or, at least chooses never to speak, even when wounded.
So regarding Iarwain and Stormriders' analysis: "From these passages, we can assume Gollum had slunk off to talk to Shelob to let her know he was bringing a special sweet treat for her. From Iarwain's post above about The Ring giving its wearer the ability to understand Dark Languages, Gollum could understand and communicate with Shelob like Bilbo could understand and sing to the Spiders in Mirkwood."
While I accept that the LOTR style Great Ring confers the power for Sam to understand the spoken speech of the Orcs, I do not see that this implies Shelob can "speak." I am still unconvinced that Gollum, with or without the Ring, could "speak" vocally with Shelob, and that she could answer him "vocally." They did communicate somehow, but I still think not by "speech." The long possession of the LOTR style Great Ring, would, I guess have left the dark-minded Gollum open to the thought and partial control of Shelob, but I still get no sense of actual "speech" between them.
LOL, one of those points probably never to be settled unless Harry Potter can stir up JRRT's old ghost, and get him to vocalize an answer for us?
Thanks Desi, thanks Stormrider!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 7, 2010 17:28:24 GMT -6
Andorinha:
JRRT never went back to The Hobbit and enhanced Bilbo's Ring to have the special communication and hearing powers that Sam has in TTT. That is an oversight, I guess, considering all throughout LOTR books, it is stated that Bilbo's ring is The One Ring. The only other thing I could say that might account for the difference is once Sam had it in Cirith Ungol, it was much closer to where it was made which might have enabled the communication and hearing powers that it did not seem to have when Bilbo had it in Mirkwood (and I guess in The Shire).
We never have any proof of Shelob and Gollum speaking because there are no passages at all that actually shows them meeting so we can read what transpired. There are only comments from the Orcs and a passage describing Shelob in her lair and how Sauron knew she was there and that He allowed Gollum to escape from Mordor via Shelob's Lair.
If the Mirkwood Spiders spoke to Bilbo and they were decendents of Shelob, shouldn't Shelob have been able to speak, too, with or without actual written proof? I know assuming gets one into trouble at times...but as you said "one of those points probably never to be settled unless Harry Potter can stir up JRRT's old ghost, and get him to vocalize an answer for us?"
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 9, 2010 11:57:28 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "JRRT never went back to The Hobbit and enhanced Bilbo's Ring to have the special communication and hearing powers that Sam has in TTT. That is an oversight..."
Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. This is another of those "disjoints" from the process of adapting the independent tale of The Hobbit to his new work LOTR. As busy as he was with the massive new material, he just overlooked, or thought it not important enough, to alter Bilbo's old ring to conform with the new, greater One Ring status it would have in LOTR.
Hmmm, one way we can sort of "weasel" out of the conundrum, is to maybe use the idea that JRRT planted in LOTR, the closer the One Ring comes to Mordor, the greater its powers as it is more fully activated? Maybe the enhanced hearing, which neither Bilbo nor Frodo seem to notice in the Shire or even in Bree when Nazgul are near, becomes an operational function when they are on the doorsteps of Sauron's traditional realm. Even at Rauros, on Ammon Hen, Frodo does not mention enhanced hearing when he puts on the Ring, so I'll bet this function of the Ring came to JRRT just as he was writing the chapters on Shelob's Lair, and Cirith Ungol. LOL, poor JRRT, he would have needed another 90 years of life to really re-work all of his mythologies into a smoothly jointed unit!
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Jan 5, 2011 9:33:58 GMT -6
Stormy, Andorinha and everybody -- Hiya!!!!
There is no question that the Mirkwood Spiders spoke a language. I think we can assume that Bilbo could still understand them even without the ring on (Hobbit pg 214) They understood his taunting(pg 211-2) I believe they were speaking in the common tongue. The Ring was not needed as a translator. Shelob was a child of Ungoliant. Ungoliant spoke to Morgoth in the "Flight of the Noldor" chapter of Sil. (pg 89 Ballantine, 1979) Could the ability to speak skip a generation? Or did JRRT decide that Shelob refused to speak to Frodo and Sam and was, therefore, more menacing? Fan
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Jan 7, 2011 7:41:38 GMT -6
Fanuidhol! Hiya! Good to see you again. Thank you for clearing that up! I did not realize that Ungoliant spoke to Morgoth! It has been a while since I read The Sil. I remember the spiders of Mirkwood talked because Bilbo coulde hear. I can't remember if the Dwarves could hear them speak and understand them also. Where is my copy of the Hobbit? I think Shelob was being quiet and did not wish to speak to Frodo and Sam so she could sneak up on them. Then once she attacked and Sam fought back, she was in too much pain to talk.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Jan 8, 2011 12:36:37 GMT -6
Hullo, Fanuidhol!
RE Fan's: "Could the ability to speak skip a generation? Or did JRRT decide that Shelob refused to speak to Frodo and Sam and was, therefore, more menacing?"
Hmm, I also had not remembered the "ur-spider," Ungoliant as a root source for spider-speech, but, as you point out, it does then leave us with a bit of a puzzle regarding Shelob's apparent muteness -- how come her root-ancestor spoke, as do the lesser "spiders" of Mirkwood, but the Great Shelob does not? Do we have any idea of how long Shelob has lived? Is she older than the oldest spiders of Mirkwood, how long do they live anyway? I vaguely remember something about Shelob having existed since at least the foundations of Gondor, will have to look that up again... No idea if she represents a second/ third/ fourth generation, nor where the Mirkwood addercops fit into the Ungoliant lineage.
Certainly, given JRRT's predilection for assigning "Cockney" accents to Trolls (Hobbit) and his LOTR Orcs, putting a Cockney voice into the menacing form of Shelob might have been a bit too much. A voiceless, silent spider, in Shelob's case, does seem the better bet for scaring the reader.
|
|