Post by Andorinha on Jan 29, 2009 19:41:11 GMT -6
Missing and Presumed Lost...
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 20 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 2/21/2002 12:31 PM
Seems to me that Tolkien left a few loose ends in his fantasy that even the appendices don't wrap up. One which has bothered me is the fate of the Entwives. After their introduction in the second book, they never quite disappear from the narrative; when Treebeard is bidding the Hobbits farewell in the third book, he reminds them to send him word should they discover anything about the Entwives when they return to their own land. That, however, is the last mention of the wives, and they are not addressed in the appendices either.
I realize that Tolkien must ensure that the Ents will eventually die out and disappear for they, like Elvish folk and wizards, belong to the age that is dying, and their race cannot be allowed to propagate itself into the forthcoming Age of Men. Having the wives disappear is obviously one way to ensure this. However, the reader never finds out what the heck happened to them or where they ended up. Talk about a literary red herring! If Treebeard is going to be allowed to keep reminding us of the topic so that we as readers cannot forget it, then Tolkien owes us some explanation as to the wives' fate. Let them all die of a tree fungus or something, but provide a denouement of some sort!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 20 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 2/21/2002 4:26 PM
Glad to see you posting Bill!
Good point. One could speculate 'till the cows came home. Why don't you think up a nice Entwives story, and post it on the role-play board? I am sure with your prose expertise, it would be an enjoyble story for all of us.
Glorfindle
A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 20 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/3/2002 4:15 PM
After extensive analytical discussion with Dr. Dorothy, my perceptive spouse, perhaps there is no mystery here after all. Recalling that the Ents are shepherds of the trees, as men are shepherds of sheep, we may conclude that the Entwives simply became Wandering Ewes. Or perhaps they wanted to branch out and left because they could no longer abide their husbands’ wooden personalities. Maybe they simply needed to cultivate their longings for greener pastures. However, my own feeling is that Tolkien’s imagination was not fertile enough to bring the fate of the Entwives to fruition.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 20 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/3/2002 9:18 PM
BillFuller, now that was punny!
MusicMom
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 20 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/4/2002 3:13 PM
Okay--I tried! But I cannot resist picking up the gauntlet, albeit tongue in cheek.
It was not lack of imagination but lack of interest that caused Tolkien not to bother to find a way to develop an explanation for the disappearance of the Entwives. He used the Entwives and the Ents longing for them as a device to underscore the "humanity" of Ents--they became beings we could understand, sympathized, and in some respect identify with. The Entwives had to disappear because there had to be an explanation for the lack of Ents in "our world" which is supposedly n outgrowth of the history of ME. How or why they disappeared has no bearing on the story of LOTR, therefore there no need arose for Tolkien to bother about what happened to them. There are other beings (e.g. the "aborigine type" people in ROTK) about whom we have no history and do not know what happened to them after the War of the Ring. This is always the way of "history." Some stories become fully developed and we know a great deal about the people and the actions of tose events. Other stories are alluded to but not developed and eventually the means to discover the answers to later questions become lost through lack of documentation or resources.
How's that for a serious answer to a tongue-in-cheek question?" Or shall we discuss the annotomical attributes of spiders again?
MusicMom
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 20 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/10/2002 1:53 PM
How or why they disappeared has no bearing on the story of LOTR, therefore there no need arose for Tolkien to bother about what happened to them.
Well now, MM, let's take a look at this, what say? Had Tolkien simply gotten rid of the Entwives with a brief, passing comment such as, "But the Entwives vanished long ago, and no song celebrates their passing, and no one knows their fate," I could agree with your observation. In fact, Tollkien dismisses several potential but minor story lines in this very way, and we accept that because, after all, we are reading "mythology," which we know is not as complete as history. However, Tolklien will not let the Entwives disappear from the reader's consciousness. Treebeard mentions them too frequently for that to happen, including his final reminder to the Hobbitts that they have promised to let him know if they learn anything of the Entwives when they return to their own land. These repeated references to the Entwives create an expectation in the reader that something more is going to be learned concerning their strange disappearance, but this is an expectation that Tolkien never fulfills. Absent any additional Entwife stories, the author would have done better to have deleted all but the first reference to their disappearance. He has inadvertently created a red herring. While I fully understand that my opinion in this particular group is that of a minority, I have to say that Tolkien's creative imagination and linguistic abilities exceeded his skill as a writer of coherent fiction.
Now, I believe you suggested that we take up the topic of whether the Entwives had simple or compound eyes?
Bill
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 20 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 3/10/2002 4:38 PM
Bill, I wonder if Tolkien deliberately didn't tie up the Entwives' story so he could write more about them at some future time; that the lack of finality is just a way to leave his creative options open.
___________________________________________________
Reply
Recommend (2 recommendations so far)
Message 8 of 20 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/10/2002 6:59 PM
I agree Olorie :-) A man's life is finite, though his spirit may live on, and his intentions come to naught. We do not know what great works may have come to pass, had Tolkien lived beyond the many years given to him.
We have no right to infer that his herrings were 'red' or otherwise. They merely may have gone on underdeveloped at the time. I have rumour, though I do not possess the book, that the last 'history' by his son Christopher, conatains a chapter that was to be the first one in a sequel to LOTR. Had that work been allowed to continue, perhaps we would have found the fate of the Entwives there, among many other jewels, brighter than even the Simarils.
Tolkien, as we know from much reading of his life and how he worked, kept many works in progress and revision, so it is no great stretch of the imagination to believe the fate of the Entwives could have gone on to be an important and fullfilling tale.
The mortality of 'Man' ripped from us one of the great spiritual leaders of our time. Yet such is the legacy of such great men, that even works they leave 'unfinished' , provide inspiration and contemplation for many, and for years to come.
We search whole-heartedly for someone to take up the gauntlet. His son Christopher has enriched the cannon, but not added to it. A whole genre of writers have imitated and done homage to him. Yet no-where do we find a leader to give us the fate of the Entwives. We do learn, however, that the age of man is not over. The Myth he gives us leads us to believe that the blood of Numenor lives in some men, somewhere, yet.
I for one will wait until that man comes forth. I will tarry in Lothlorien among the elanor, and sit on the rocks at the Grey Havens and watch the ships, and laugh with the hobbits in the Shire, and have many breakfastes. I will pass the legacy of Tolkien to my children, and to theirs, until the heir to Elessar comes again to our world. And he will. Tolkien told me.
Glor
_________________________________________________
Reply
Recommend
Message 9 of 20 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 3/11/2002 4:40 AM
Letter #338 Answering the question: Did the Ents ever find the Entwives? Tolkien writes: "As for the Entwives: I do not know. I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale...the Kings Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron;)...But I think in Vol II...it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history'-but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see..."
This letter was written 6/1972. In Vol II he means the Treebeard chapter where Treebeard tells the story and sings the song of the Entwives. Because both thoughts (the sequel and the fate of Entwives) are in the same paragraph, I believe the question Tolkien answered was not "Did the Ents ever find the Entwives?" It could have been "Will the Ents ever find the Entwives?"
Bill, I don't believe that Tolkien meant to "lead us on" nor ignored the issue of Entwives because it had no relevance to the rest of the story. I believe that he allowed the Ents (and readers) to hope even though the odds were against it, a very human trait.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 20 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 2/21/2002 12:31 PM
Seems to me that Tolkien left a few loose ends in his fantasy that even the appendices don't wrap up. One which has bothered me is the fate of the Entwives. After their introduction in the second book, they never quite disappear from the narrative; when Treebeard is bidding the Hobbits farewell in the third book, he reminds them to send him word should they discover anything about the Entwives when they return to their own land. That, however, is the last mention of the wives, and they are not addressed in the appendices either.
I realize that Tolkien must ensure that the Ents will eventually die out and disappear for they, like Elvish folk and wizards, belong to the age that is dying, and their race cannot be allowed to propagate itself into the forthcoming Age of Men. Having the wives disappear is obviously one way to ensure this. However, the reader never finds out what the heck happened to them or where they ended up. Talk about a literary red herring! If Treebeard is going to be allowed to keep reminding us of the topic so that we as readers cannot forget it, then Tolkien owes us some explanation as to the wives' fate. Let them all die of a tree fungus or something, but provide a denouement of some sort!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 20 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 2/21/2002 4:26 PM
Glad to see you posting Bill!
Good point. One could speculate 'till the cows came home. Why don't you think up a nice Entwives story, and post it on the role-play board? I am sure with your prose expertise, it would be an enjoyble story for all of us.
Glorfindle
A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 20 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/3/2002 4:15 PM
After extensive analytical discussion with Dr. Dorothy, my perceptive spouse, perhaps there is no mystery here after all. Recalling that the Ents are shepherds of the trees, as men are shepherds of sheep, we may conclude that the Entwives simply became Wandering Ewes. Or perhaps they wanted to branch out and left because they could no longer abide their husbands’ wooden personalities. Maybe they simply needed to cultivate their longings for greener pastures. However, my own feeling is that Tolkien’s imagination was not fertile enough to bring the fate of the Entwives to fruition.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 20 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/3/2002 9:18 PM
BillFuller, now that was punny!
MusicMom
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 20 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/4/2002 3:13 PM
Okay--I tried! But I cannot resist picking up the gauntlet, albeit tongue in cheek.
It was not lack of imagination but lack of interest that caused Tolkien not to bother to find a way to develop an explanation for the disappearance of the Entwives. He used the Entwives and the Ents longing for them as a device to underscore the "humanity" of Ents--they became beings we could understand, sympathized, and in some respect identify with. The Entwives had to disappear because there had to be an explanation for the lack of Ents in "our world" which is supposedly n outgrowth of the history of ME. How or why they disappeared has no bearing on the story of LOTR, therefore there no need arose for Tolkien to bother about what happened to them. There are other beings (e.g. the "aborigine type" people in ROTK) about whom we have no history and do not know what happened to them after the War of the Ring. This is always the way of "history." Some stories become fully developed and we know a great deal about the people and the actions of tose events. Other stories are alluded to but not developed and eventually the means to discover the answers to later questions become lost through lack of documentation or resources.
How's that for a serious answer to a tongue-in-cheek question?" Or shall we discuss the annotomical attributes of spiders again?
MusicMom
___________________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 20 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/10/2002 1:53 PM
How or why they disappeared has no bearing on the story of LOTR, therefore there no need arose for Tolkien to bother about what happened to them.
Well now, MM, let's take a look at this, what say? Had Tolkien simply gotten rid of the Entwives with a brief, passing comment such as, "But the Entwives vanished long ago, and no song celebrates their passing, and no one knows their fate," I could agree with your observation. In fact, Tollkien dismisses several potential but minor story lines in this very way, and we accept that because, after all, we are reading "mythology," which we know is not as complete as history. However, Tolklien will not let the Entwives disappear from the reader's consciousness. Treebeard mentions them too frequently for that to happen, including his final reminder to the Hobbitts that they have promised to let him know if they learn anything of the Entwives when they return to their own land. These repeated references to the Entwives create an expectation in the reader that something more is going to be learned concerning their strange disappearance, but this is an expectation that Tolkien never fulfills. Absent any additional Entwife stories, the author would have done better to have deleted all but the first reference to their disappearance. He has inadvertently created a red herring. While I fully understand that my opinion in this particular group is that of a minority, I have to say that Tolkien's creative imagination and linguistic abilities exceeded his skill as a writer of coherent fiction.
Now, I believe you suggested that we take up the topic of whether the Entwives had simple or compound eyes?
Bill
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 20 in Discussion
From: Olórië
Sent: 3/10/2002 4:38 PM
Bill, I wonder if Tolkien deliberately didn't tie up the Entwives' story so he could write more about them at some future time; that the lack of finality is just a way to leave his creative options open.
___________________________________________________
Reply
Recommend (2 recommendations so far)
Message 8 of 20 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/10/2002 6:59 PM
I agree Olorie :-) A man's life is finite, though his spirit may live on, and his intentions come to naught. We do not know what great works may have come to pass, had Tolkien lived beyond the many years given to him.
We have no right to infer that his herrings were 'red' or otherwise. They merely may have gone on underdeveloped at the time. I have rumour, though I do not possess the book, that the last 'history' by his son Christopher, conatains a chapter that was to be the first one in a sequel to LOTR. Had that work been allowed to continue, perhaps we would have found the fate of the Entwives there, among many other jewels, brighter than even the Simarils.
Tolkien, as we know from much reading of his life and how he worked, kept many works in progress and revision, so it is no great stretch of the imagination to believe the fate of the Entwives could have gone on to be an important and fullfilling tale.
The mortality of 'Man' ripped from us one of the great spiritual leaders of our time. Yet such is the legacy of such great men, that even works they leave 'unfinished' , provide inspiration and contemplation for many, and for years to come.
We search whole-heartedly for someone to take up the gauntlet. His son Christopher has enriched the cannon, but not added to it. A whole genre of writers have imitated and done homage to him. Yet no-where do we find a leader to give us the fate of the Entwives. We do learn, however, that the age of man is not over. The Myth he gives us leads us to believe that the blood of Numenor lives in some men, somewhere, yet.
I for one will wait until that man comes forth. I will tarry in Lothlorien among the elanor, and sit on the rocks at the Grey Havens and watch the ships, and laugh with the hobbits in the Shire, and have many breakfastes. I will pass the legacy of Tolkien to my children, and to theirs, until the heir to Elessar comes again to our world. And he will. Tolkien told me.
Glor
_________________________________________________
Reply
Recommend
Message 9 of 20 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 3/11/2002 4:40 AM
Letter #338 Answering the question: Did the Ents ever find the Entwives? Tolkien writes: "As for the Entwives: I do not know. I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale...the Kings Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron;)...But I think in Vol II...it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history'-but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see..."
This letter was written 6/1972. In Vol II he means the Treebeard chapter where Treebeard tells the story and sings the song of the Entwives. Because both thoughts (the sequel and the fate of Entwives) are in the same paragraph, I believe the question Tolkien answered was not "Did the Ents ever find the Entwives?" It could have been "Will the Ents ever find the Entwives?"
Bill, I don't believe that Tolkien meant to "lead us on" nor ignored the issue of Entwives because it had no relevance to the rest of the story. I believe that he allowed the Ents (and readers) to hope even though the odds were against it, a very human trait.