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Post by Andorinha on Oct 31, 2011 9:56:09 GMT -6
Something just occurred to me -- it looks as though Bilbo entered the passage on this first trip to the Dragon's Lair, without using his "lucky" ring at all? I was thinking it might have boosted his courage, but if he did not use it, he made the decision to continue totally on his own? Was he wearing the ring at this time?
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Post by Vanye on Oct 31, 2011 11:49:28 GMT -6
So- Bilbo has seen & burglarized Smaug & the dragon has thrown his dragon sized temper tantrum! Their fat is now in the fire for real & for sure. The time has come for Bilbo to rise to the occasion w/a plan! 8^)
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 1, 2011 5:21:19 GMT -6
Andorinha...Bilbo really wasn't a burglar, he was just assigned that job by Gandalf and the Dwarves, and he worked hard at being their burglar. I think he was entitled to some doubts and misgivings as to his assignment! How would you like to be chosen to steal a treasure right out from under a Dragon's nose? Not me!
You are kidding, right? Bilbo DIDN'T use his ring on his first trip down? I thought he put it on when he went to steal the first cup or goblet (or whatever it was!) I have to go in to work early today, so I haven't had a chance to get the book out and see for my self! I should take it with me and read it during a slow moment.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 1, 2011 9:20:09 GMT -6
Aha! I found it! Bilbo does put his ring on, just after he parts company with Balin a little way down the tunnel! Whew. Read that section twice yesterday, must have skipped over the ring bit twice -- getting old...
"After a while Balin bade Bilbo 'Good luck!' and stopped where he could still see the faint outline of the door ... Then the hobbit slipped on his ring..." (The Hobbit, Inside Information, p. 204, my emphasis)
I kind of get the feeling that by this stage of the narrative Bilbo's Tookish side actually enjoyed the role of burglar -- er "expert treasure hunter." But, you are right, Stormrider, Bilbo never asked for that position, though at times he seems both proud and embarrassed by his status. Gandalf seems to have known however, that the little fellow would (eventually) come to be a truly great burglar, a "storied" character!
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Post by Vanye on Nov 2, 2011 21:10:57 GMT -6
Smaug is dead & Laketown is in ruins! Our heroes' fat is in the fire now-tho they don't yet know it. Gandalf, Beorn & the Goblins hear about it from afar & they, I believe, do understand what is to come. 8^)
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 3, 2011 5:14:07 GMT -6
Yikes! Smaug is dead already! We haven't even had time to discuss Bilbo's encounters with him! Things move quickly once a dragon is disturbed! I kind of get the feeling that by this stage of the narrative Bilbo's Tookish side actually enjoyed the role of burglar -- er "expert treasure hunter." But, you are right, Stormrider, Bilbo never asked for that position, though at times he seems both proud and embarrassed by his status. Gandalf seems to have known however, that the little fellow would (eventually) come to be a truly great burglar, a "storied" character! Thorin delivers his speech on it now being the time for Bilbo to earn his Reward for the service he was assigned with the company. Bilbo does seem rather proud in his response on having earned part of his reward already by getting the Dwarves out of two messes already. Plus he says he won't refuse to go down the tunnel toward Smaug because he has begun to trust his luck. Then speaking to himself on his way down the tunnel after Balin stops going with him Bilbo gives himself a tongue lashing abut how much of a fool he was to accept this job! But then Bilbo picks up his courage again after seeing the red glow of the dragon and hearing his gurgling and snoring. "It was at this point that Bilbo stopped. Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did. The tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait."
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 3, 2011 8:01:08 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "Yikes! Smaug is dead already! We haven't even had time to discuss Bilbo's encounters with him! Things move quickly once a dragon is disturbed!"
Yow! You are right, after kicking our heels in the Elven King's dungeon for weeks, then feasting-up at Laketown in a leisurely way, suddenly we have massive amounts of action crammed into just a few days!
I thought it remarkable that Bilbo (or Tolkien as narrator), looking back on all his adventures to-date, considered the moment of personal crisis to be his traversing through the tunnel, just before really seeing the dragon. I guess here, Bilbo is totally isolated, can't even see properly; yet he has time, as he slowly advances, to think about his predicament rather than merely react to an attack; and he has to rely entirely on himself (though he was also in such a fix in the Goblin tunnels, now that I think on it). A sticky-fix indeed.
I like the slowly building suspense, as the tunnel becomes gradually warmer, steamier, and the light of the dragon becomes a growing, menacing glow.
I'm not sure how to read Tolkien at this point: "Before him lies the great bottommost cellar or dungeon-hall of the ancient dwarves right at the Mountain's root. It is almost dark so that its vastness can only be dimly guessed, but rising from the near side of the rocky floor there is a great glow. The glow of Smaug!" (The Hobbit, Inside Information, p. 205-06)
Does this "glow" refer to the firey breath of the dragon -- or does the very body of the great worm glow? "There he lay, a vast red-golden dragon, fast asleep; a thrumming came from his jaws and nostrils, and wisps of smoke, but his fires were low in slumber." (The Hobbit, Inside Information, p. 206
Sounds like Smaug's body glows by itself, as he is not, apparently, producing mouth and nose flames at this moment? A bit later there is a description of Smaug coming to Laketown where he is also seen as a golden glow in the sky as he approaches, I would think this glow also should be a function of his body, otherwise he would be wasting his precious dragon-fire weapon as he flew down the length of the Long Lake? I'm not sure what Tolkien had in mind here.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Nov 3, 2011 12:28:09 GMT -6
Sounds like Smaug's body glows by itself, as he is not, apparently, producing mouth and nose flames at this moment? A bit later there is a description of Smaug coming to Laketown where he is also seen as a golden glow in the sky as he approaches, I would think this glow also should be a function of his body, otherwise he would be wasting his precious dragon-fire weapon as he flew down the length of the Long Lake? I'm not sure what Tolkien had in mind here. Probably not what Tolkien had in mind but in the movie The Flight of Dragons, a dragon has to let out fire to descend while in flight. According to the film, their bodies expand with gases like a blimp and they belch flames to release some of those gases. I always thought that was a cool explanation of dragon physiology. That's not a widespread take on it though. Maybe Smaug's body glows as a result of his inner fire, like a massive semi-transparent furnace with scales.
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 4, 2011 19:18:57 GMT -6
I don't know about what Freddie says about emitting the heat gases so dragons can decend, but I could see how dragons might glow as if they are on fire. Funny, I never thought about that before (and after reading what Andorinha quoted from JRRT's own word). It makes perfectly good sense that Smaug would glow as if he is on fire from the furnaces within himself. Usually dragons are not described or shown as glowing like that from what I have read and seen in movies. I can see how that could be!
I hope PJ does Smaug proud...appearance and voice.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 6, 2011 10:00:07 GMT -6
LOL, Freddie, I like the concept of dragon's as great balloons , bouyed up by their own gases -- yeah, but not sure either that this mechanism is what Tolkien saw.
Your "semi-transparent furnace with scales" works for me.
_______________
Stormrider, the movie should be able to do us a grand dragon, Smaug is a special effects artist's dream situation. A big, bright, action packed figure.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Nov 6, 2011 15:25:38 GMT -6
LOL, Freddie, I like the concept of dragon's as great balloons , bouyed up by their own gases -- yeah, but not sure either that this mechanism is what Tolkien saw. Check out that movie if you get a chance. It's made by Rankin-Bass, who also did the animated Hobbit and Return of the King. Very creative film, one of my favorites. As for Tolkien's dragons, I came across an entry for "Spark-dragons" on the Tolkien Gateway. Hard to tell what they were or if they still existed in his later legendarium. But I wonder if Tolkien envisioned some dragons producing a glow or light. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Spark-dragons
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 7, 2011 7:26:03 GMT -6
Just think of all of the visual, verbal, and mental feelings Bilbo was experiencing once he entered the Cavern and saw Smaug and his hoard of goodies! - The astonishment and fear of seeing the dragon.
- The wonder of the treasure and the set in of the lust.
- The spellbinding qualities of the dragon's voice.
- The pride with which Bilbo thought he was fooling the dragon with his riddles about himself.
And yet Tolkien picked the moments before Bilbo enters the Cavern as Bilbo's toughest moment to overcome. At that point, Bilbo did not know what he would be in for! He had no idea! I think the element of the unknown was what Bilbo had to deal with and overcome before he stepped forward. He did not know how he would come out of an encounter with a dragon. How well would his Ring hide him from a dragon What senses would a dragon have that might detect him even with his Ring? Would he be burned to a crisp? eaten? or escape? What would the dragon do once Bilbo's presence was known?
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Post by Vanye on Nov 8, 2011 1:42:49 GMT -6
Yesterday the birds told Bilbo & the dwarves of the death of Smaug & also that the Wood elves have arrived @ Laketown & are helping the folk there-thus it will be a while before they arrive @ the Lonely Mtn. They set about readying themselves for the battle to come. Thorin Oakenshield has sent off an urgent message with the birds to his cousin Dain to come to their assistance. 8^)
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 9, 2011 8:39:22 GMT -6
Wow, Vanye, this month is absolutely packed with significant events, and for us to discuss them in "proper" depth, LOL, we'll probably have to lag behind the actual dates. But, if you can just keep track of the important items, and note them on the actual day of their occurrence, the discussion can eventually catch up with the narrative? I think we will have almost 6 months of "return travel" when Tolkien notes very few events as the journey progresses -- a "feast or famine" situation!
RE Stormrider's: "I think the element of the unknown was what Bilbo had to deal with and overcome before he stepped forward."
Yeah, the unknown, total anxiety in the dark...
I really like the way Tolkien expresses Bilbo's amazement once he sees just how vast the treasure is: "To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful." (The Hobbit, Inside Information, p. 206)
I think Tolkien re-uses this concept later in LOTR, the idea that the original language Men learned from the Elves was more perfectly expressive than the later tongues. I guess this might also be a sort of vague connection with the Silmarillion material, where Elves in the First Age become the tutors of (some) Men?
At this point, viewing all that treasure, there awakens even in kindly Bilbo's heart a sort of "gold-sickness:" "His heart was filled and pierced with enchantment and with the desire of dwarves; and he gazed motionless, almost forgetting the frightful guardian, at the gold beyond price and count." (The Hobbit, p. 206)
This helps me understand the soon to occur arkenstone event, Bilbo could be just as susceptible to the "sin" of covetousness as the Dwarves. Here, when he takes the golden cup, I think he has indeed become a true burglar, one who steals out of lust for the object he takes. Bilbo, will have to watch out, will have to find some way of keeping himself from surrendering to this lust. Sigh, more tests of the hobbit's character, I suppose from his Baggin's side, he could have become more like Otho and Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, letting thoughts of treasure take command on a permanent basis? I think later, in LOTR Tolkien goes to some length explaining how generous Bilbo will be with his share of the treasure, using it in the Shire to help others as well as himself. But, just at this moment, I think Bilbo does become a bit overwhelmed, understandably, I think!
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 9, 2011 10:01:14 GMT -6
Ah, "Glow Worms" and "Spark Dragons," yeah Freddie this does give "dragon glow" a possible JRRT background.
Thanks!
Looking at The Flight of Dragons on Amazon, fairly good price...
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