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Post by Andorinha on Dec 3, 2011 23:00:06 GMT -6
Lurks, indeed! It seems that's one of the things about dragons, they have great patience when needs be...
It did not occur to me, before reviewing the Beowulf tale, but Smaug, I think flies only in the dark of night? I wonder if Tolkien was using the Beowulf dragon as a template for Smaug?
Looked up the Beowulf dragon, seems, he, like Smaug was only a night flyer, avoiding the sun. Bilbo seems to know this trait of the dragons, hence his almost certain feeling that he'd find Smaug sleeping in the afternoon: '"Now I will make you an offer. I have got my ring and will creep down this very noon -- then if ever Smaug ought to be napping..."' (The Hobbit, "Inside Information," p. 211 pap. ver.)
I'll need to check this a bit more carefully, but does Smaug ever fly in the daytime? I think both times Smaug attacks the dwarves encampment and the secret door, it is at night? I know that Bilbo and the purloined cup make it to the top of the tunnel after midnight, then Smaug awakens, wrecks their camp, eats some ponies, all before dawn -- if I'm reading the events of pages 207- 11 correctly. Then again, the next attack, after Bilbo is chased up the tunnel toward evening (p. 217) seems to come after "the stars began to peep forth" (p. 218). This attack smashes the secret door, and then by night flying, Smaug attacks Laketown. So, it looks like Tolkien is following the Beowulf dragon motif wherein dragons fly only at night.
Beowulf and 12 fellow warriors (13 in all) go after their dragon, alas, without a "lucky number 14" hobbit to help them out, the raid upon their dragon's lair turns out less than successful, Beowulf dies.
One difference, Beowulf's dragon does not speak, at least in the version I just read, but Tolkien's Smaug is quite a clever conversationalist... Likes riddles too!
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 4, 2011 19:14:06 GMT -6
Hmmm...thoughts on why they would fly only at night: 1. Are dragons too hot to fly during the daytime especially if they are full of fire themselves? 2. Or is it so people can see them coming in all their fiery glory? Perhaps dragons fly only at night because they hope that anyone viewing a dragon coming at them at night blazing flames would paralyze the intended victim(s) so they would not run or fight back. 3. Or can a dragon hold in their flaming appearance and stay camoflaged in dark to sneak up in the night so they can attack with surprise? 4. Or is it something simple like . . . They would be pretty noticable flying around in the daytime if stealth and surprise is their intent.
But dragons in Christopher Paolini's Eragon Series, fly during the daytime as well as at night. Of course, Paolini's dragons were not an influence for Tolkien since these novels were written many decades after Tolkien's Hobbit was written.
I wonder what Androga Erindalant (formerly Orgulas) would have to say about dragons, since he is a huge fan of dragons. What does he know about different dragon legends and attributes?
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 6, 2011 10:10:45 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "I wonder what Androga Erindalant (formerly Orgulas) would have to say about dragons, since he is a huge fan of dragons. What does he know about different dragon legends and attributes?"
Ooo, yeah, if he is still available, he would be a good source!
The only thing I can think of, off hand, is that it may be related to the coming of the Sun in The Silmarillion, for all creatures of Evil made before the rising of the first Sun found its rays difficult to endure. Some, trolls, even turned to stone in the Sunlight... So now, when did dragons enter Middle-earth, before the first Sun?
But, I think Glaurung, who fights Turin etc, moved about in the daylight, though, as I recall, he could not fly? But, maybe Glaurung's story in The Silmarillion was actually written after The Hobbit?
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 27, 2011 7:57:58 GMT -6
Is it Yule time yet in Middle-earth? I think Bilbo spends the Yule period with Beorn.
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 28, 2011 7:34:34 GMT -6
Let's see. Here are some Shire Calendar links: This link: shire-reckoning.com/calendar.htmlsays: "The two days of Yule fell around the Winter solstice, between December and January; the first day of Yule was the last day of one year, and the second day of Yule was the new-year's day of the next." and: "Under this system we always celebrate the Shire New Year upon our own 21 December" Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_calendar also corroborates Dec 21 as Yule Tolkien Gateway: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Shire_Calendar Dec 21st so . . . Bilbo was at Beorn's on our own Dec. 21st. How long did he stay?
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 28, 2011 10:48:49 GMT -6
Hmmm, Tolkien gets a bit vague on dates but does give us a couple of clues:
"Anyway by mid-winter* Gandalf and Bilbo had come all the way back, along both edges of the Forest, to the doors of Beorn's house; and there for a while they both stayed. Yule-tide was warm and merry there... " (Chpt. 18, "The Return Journey," p. 278 pap. vr)
"It was spring, and a fair one with mild weathers and a bright sun, before Bilbo and Gandalf took their leave at last of Beorn, Bilbo left with regret, for the flowers of the gardens of Beorn were in springtime no less marvellous than in high summer." (Ibid, p. 278)
A fairly lengthy stay, then, well into the actual spring, waiting for the winter snows of the Mountain Pass to melt. I've misplaced my Atlas of Middle-earth, if any one else has a copy to hand, what time line does Fonstad give? Does "mid-winter"* mean a general group of days toward the middle of the winter season, or does it refer to an actual Midwinter's Day?
So at least by our December 21, and then on some time into the spring...
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 29, 2011 8:31:22 GMT -6
Karen Fonstad does not show a return path on her map but she does give a chronological list with the last leg of Bilbo's journey as follows:
November 27 - Gandalf, Bilbo, and Beorn leave Lonely Mountain
December 30 - They arrive at Beorn's and stay until spring
May 1 - Gandalf and Bilbo reach Rivendell
May 8 - They leave for Hobbiton, which they reach in June
So if all the Shire Calendars agree that Yule is December 21, then Fonstad is a bit off stating that they arrive at Beorn's on December 30. Unless Tolkien meant Yule-tide more as a seasonal time frame rather than the actual date that Yule actually fell.
And mid-winter must just be a reference to a group of days in the middle of winter since it doesn't actually say Midwinter Day in the written text. But Midwinter's Day may have been among those days of mid-winter that they stated.
By this list, Bilbo and Gandalf must have left Beorn's in April. It is difficult to gauge how long a walking or riding return trip would take from Beorn's to Rivendell since there is no return map with dates; and the journey from Rivendell to Beorn's is messed up with being captured by the Goblins and rescued by the Eagles and flown to The Carrock.
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 29, 2011 8:45:40 GMT -6
Calendar from Wikipedia: Month Number | Name | Approx date to Gregorian Calendar
| . | 2 Yule | 22 December
| 1 | Afteryule | 23 Dec to the 21st of Jan
| 2 | Solmath | 22 Jan to the 20th of Feb
| 3 | Rethe | 21 Feb to the 22nd of March
| 4 | Astron | 23 March to 21 April | 5 | Thrimidge | 22 April to the 21st of May
| 6 | Forelithe | 22 May to the 20th of June
| . | 1 Lithe | 1 June | . | Mid-year's Day | 22 June | . | Overlithe | Leap Day | . | 2 Lithe | 23 June | 7 | Afterlithe | 24 June to the 23rd of July
| 8 | Wedmath | 24 July to the 22nd of Aug
| 9 | Halimath | 23 Aug to the 21st of Sept
| 10 | Winterfilth | 22 Sept to 21 Oct
| 11 | Blotmath | 22 Oct to the 20th of Nov
| 12 | Foreyule | 21 Nov to the 20th of Dec
| . | 1 Yule | 21 December |
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 3, 2012 11:50:29 GMT -6
Ah, thank you for the calendar, Stormrider! Very handy!
So, about now, Bilbo and Gandalf are being treated to a series of feasts, and apparently, some "political" meetings too:
"Yule-tide was warm and merry there; and men came from far and wide to feast at Beorn's bidding." (The Hobbit, "The Return Journey," p 278 pb ver). From this section of the narrative, we learn that Beorn was starting to get over his distaste for strangers, and that he is starting to build up a following, he is becoming a ruler of men. I wonder how much of Beorn's uncharacteristic interest in men was due to Gandalf's persuasion? Gandalf needed new political powers in the Wilderland, needed an alliance among the "good folk" to stabilize that frontier, to bring security to the area...
"Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood... " (The Hobbit, p. 278) In fact, Beorn establishes a dynasty of Bear-men, and the Beornings do much to secure this area of the Wilderness:
"In their day the last of the goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild." (The Hobbit, p. 278)
It seems then, that Bilbo's expedition eastward was of great political importance. Without Bilbo, the Dwarves would have failed in their mission, Dale would not have risen from its ashes, a new union among Men, Elves, and Dwarves would not have been cemented, and Beorn would probably have kept to his solitary ways. Bilbo, guided by Gandalf, seems unwittingly to have brought all the "good folk" of the Woodland areas into a peaceful era of cooperation. An alliance that would be sorely tested in the last war of the Ring.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 12, 2012 10:35:10 GMT -6
February 12, and in the latitudes of upper Mirkwood forest, the nights are still long. Perhaps the forest makes winter a bit less severe in Beorn's steading -- the long, biting winds of the east are buffered by the tangled trees, and only from the north may occasional blizzards strike with force unimpeded. Does Bilbo, weary of the dark confines and the stuffy atmosphere of the hall, wander about the yards playing in the snow? Does he "earn" his meals by plying a shovel, moving the great white masses from about the doors, whiling away the hours of boredom with such helpful chores?
Their enforced idleness in the evenings would allow close and long talks with Gandalf, maybe getting the old wizard to teach a few phrases of proper Elvish, or spin some yarns of ancient derring-do... But most of the time, in between feasting with Beorn's sporadic guests -- some of them bears? -- surely Bilbo scribbled away by firelight, and candlelight, getting his notes in order.
A long while yet, til Spring, and the thaw allows for longer and more purposeful treks...
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 15, 2012 0:26:28 GMT -6
A nice firelit hall to keep them all warm adn cozy for those long discussions, language lessons, and note taking, I would say. I wonder if he learned any animal talk as well!
We have hardly had much snow this winter up here in Chicagoland so it is difficult for me to think of Bilbo playing in the snow or shoveling it. But it seems very likely he may have done those things, too.
Although the stay seems to be dragging on, I imagine it was very enjoyable for everyone after all the dangers and excitement of the first half of the journey!
Bilbo was still thinking of home and longing to be back (don't imagine he forgot about that!).
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 17, 2012 9:49:28 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "Bilbo was still thinking of home and longing to be back (don't imagine he forgot about that!). "
Ah, that reminds me, I've decided to go through the book again, looking for all the "expressions of home-sickness," those statements by Bilbo, in speech or thought where he recalls his snug hobbit hole, or those places where the narrator tells us that Bilbo was thinking, longingly of home...
Snow: we got an unexpected and quite lovely treat Valentine's Day. About two inches of feathery, multiple-flake stuff fell here, covered the hills and mountains much deeper than that. In the valley it stayed on the ground for a few hours, but fell like a blizzard when it came down, visibility reduced to 20 feet. All the neighbors are still talking about the "remarkable snow..."
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 29, 2012 10:02:13 GMT -6
Bilbo is still sitting at Beorn's, twiddling his thumbs, and maybe even his furry toes, waiting for the Spring... I wonder if all the company Beorn is having this winter has made him more sociable? Is it from all this camarderie that Beorn finally decides maybe he needs a wife after all? I'm not sure the appendix in LOTR gives us the date of Beorn's son's birth, will have to check and see if this occurs fairly soon after Gandalf/Bilbo's visit.
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Post by Stormrider on Mar 1, 2012 7:31:17 GMT -6
I wonder why JRRT had Bilbo stay at Beorn's for soooo long. Perhaps the weather was really furious outside and travel was out of the question.
Well, along with The Homely House at Rivendell, Bilbo must have felt very comfortable and welcome with Beorn (now that he knew him).
Who would Beorn have chosen as his wife? Would she have been a skin changer or a normal woman? Where were all the other skin changers living anyway? Makes you wonder where Beorn found her. Was Beorn's son a skin changer, too?
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Post by Andorinha on Mar 2, 2012 10:19:22 GMT -6
Not much known in detail about Beorn and his descendants, but the "shape-shifting" seems to have been inherited: Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear’s shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild…. ( The Hobbit, pap bk ver, chpt XVIII, p. 278, my emphasis) So, what does "many generations" mean? More than 3 or 4 I should think? But not a word that I can find, about any of the females required to establish such a dynasty... I always associated the name "Beorn" with some form of Nordic word meaning "bear," but, apparently it is derived from "ber" meaning "man" or "warrior." so Grimbeorn the Old would be "Grim Warrior," not "Grim Bear?" There is a Norse saga, the Saga of Hrólfr Kraki, that has a great bear in it, and a man who could change into bear-shape. This may have been the source for the "skin-changer," Beorn in The Hobbit. Apparently, Tolkien was so taken with this saga that he wrote up a bit of fiction about it, the Sellic Spell. Unfortunately, this story is still among the unpublished works, don't know if it is available. May be at Marquette?
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