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Post by Vanye on May 13, 2011 20:49:16 GMT -6
Again, according to Fonstad (pg. 100) the Fellowship made it in 10 days less than Bilbo & Co. & they were on foot-but of course did not have as many lengthy delays either. Bilbo & Co. 38 days/Frodo 28 days. 8^)
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Post by Andorinha on May 14, 2011 9:40:25 GMT -6
Ah, a few pages further on into the Fellowship (pp. 269-270, pap bk ver) we have the following precise conformance between the two tales, Frodo's and Bilbo's:
"The hobbits were glad to leave the cheerless lands and the perilous Road behind them; but this new country seemed threatening and unfriendly. As they went forward the hills about them steadily rose. Here and there upon heights and ridges they caught glimpses of ancient walls of stone, and the ruins of towers: they had an ominous look. Frodo, who was not walking, had time to gaze ahead and to think. He recalled Bilbo's account of his journey and the threatening towers on the hills north of the Road, in the country near the Troll's wood where his first serious adventure had happened. Frodo guessed that they were now in the same region, and wondered if by chance they would pass near the spot." (FotR, pp 269-70, pap bk ver)
Aragorn helpfully tells us that this second line of fortifications (if we count the first as the "barrow-wightish" line of walls and look-outs along the Weather Hills) was made by a people who may once have been "Good" but "'They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them, though a shadow still lies on the land.'" (FotR 270)
I wonder if this makes these "ominous" castles, near the Last Bridge, the boundary line of the breakaway, renegade-Dunedain kingdom of Rhudaur?
At any rate, it seems the Dwarves and Bilbo reached Weathertop (though they did not mention it by name) on the 12th/ 13th/ 14th of May, while Frodo and company were on the same hill the 6th of October. As you point out, Vanye, Fonstad reckons the Bilbo troupe, riding, made it to Rivendell in 38 days, while Frodo, wounded and largely on foot, covered the distance in 28 days despite being off the road and bush-whacking a good deal of the time. Something seems wrong here?
It will be interesting to find the next point of secure congruence, where JRRT definitely gives us a dated reference for Bilbo and Frodo being at the same geographic locale, to further measure the differences in their respective rates of travel. Maybe this comes at the Last Bridge area, where Bilbo and Frodo both spot the ruined castles?
Anyway, at first glance, it really seems like Bilbo's cavalcade was just dawdling around, while Frodo's foot expedition (plus pony Bill) moved across the terrain with great speed.
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Post by Stormrider on May 14, 2011 16:53:49 GMT -6
At any rate, it seems the Dwarves and Bilbo reached Weathertop (though they did not mention it by name) on the 12th/ 13th/ 14th of May, while Frodo and company were on the same hill the 6th of October. As you point out, Vanye, Fonstad reckons the Bilbo troupe, riding, made it to Rivendell in 38 days, while Frodo, wounded and largely on foot, covered the distance in 28 days despite being off the road and bush-whacking a good deal of the time. Something seems wrong here?
It will be interesting to find the next point of secure congruence, where JRRT definitely gives us a dated reference for Bilbo and Frodo being at the same geographic locale, to further measure the differences in their respective rates of travel. Maybe this comes at the Last Bridge area, where Bilbo and Frodo both spot the ruined castles?
Anyway, at first glance, it really seems like Bilbo's cavalcade was just dawdling around, while Frodo's foot expedition (plus pony Bill) moved across the terrain with great speed. Interesting! I agree that Frodo would have been in a great hurry while Bilbo's group may have been dawdling around. But why would they have done that? I would think Thorin would have been eager to get to the Lonely Mountain to reclaim his mountain. But perhaps the fact that they would have to face a dragon would have given them cause to take it slow even with the aid of ponies.
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Post by Andorinha on May 17, 2011 10:07:43 GMT -6
Hmm, Dwarf-ridden ponies...
So, Stormrider, with your first-hand experience, if you were trekking cross-country on horseback (with no real emergency driving you) how far could you reasonably expect to go in one day on a fair road, let's say at least 8 hours devoted to riding, with suitable short rest stops before finally making camp in the evening? Would ten miles be reasonable, or fifteen? I got the impression from a thirty mile ride through the Teton plains (five days trekking) that I could, on foot, easily have kept up with the cavalcade (maybe 2 mph?). We had three wagons with us, two carried horse fodder, high quality oats/ bran/ and some kind of "cake." The dwarves, presumably, would rely on grass-forage only, requiring a good deal of grazing time for their ponies to get enough sustenance to make the next day's haul. So, maybe my original expectation that pony-riding should make for faster travel than foot-slogging, was in error -- maybe the dwarves, at about 10 miles per day, were actually getting about all they could expect from their ponies?
In LotR, Aragorn mentions that even if they had managed to keep all five of their ponies (lost at Bree), they would not have made much more speed than a man on foot, at least following the backwood trails he meant to use. Maybe 2 to 3 mph? But in fact, his group manages nearly 17 miles per day. Some "striding," indeed! Of course they were under extreme, survival pressure to move as rapidly as possible...
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Post by Vanye on May 17, 2011 10:36:06 GMT -6
A horse's walking speed is around 9-10 mph. Some gaited horses can go quite a bit faster-but the terrain, of course, will dictate weather or not they can sustain it for long stretches. Ponies, obviously, have shorter legs so that has got to be a factor. Icelandic ponies have a great ambling type of gait that they seem to be able to maintain on uneven, rocky ground (which, of course, describes pretty much all of Iceland to a T). If you are on foot & have reason to think you may be pursued by someone or something you have no wish to confront you can move quite rapidly, indeed! Of course if you have any mishaps things will change & not for the good. But the point here being that human beings do not have to stop & graze & can eat on the go-or if they have little or no food that alone may be the spur that drives them on to get to where they can get food. Anyway I have rambled on long enough-just thinking on the keyboard here! 8^)
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Post by Andorinha on May 17, 2011 11:49:14 GMT -6
9 to 10 mph! WOW! Now this is entirely unfair, Vanye! Apparently the horses you've had experience with, are great-hearted steeds indeed! How come every time I go out, I get the 16-20 year old nags, that just might be able to hit the four mph mark if they smell carrots and fresh hay ahead? I should have complained when they told me my horse answered the name "Old Geezer!" The alternative mount I had was just as bad -- aptly named "Old Wheezer!"
Yeah, I think you are right, humans can maintain a fair pace for quite some time, especially with a backpack of high energy rations. I've also read of humans on foot chasing down horses over a two or three day period, so maybe, with our relatively lesser bulks to carry, we have greater overall stamina for getting through the miles? Makes sense that a horse is designed for short bursts of high speed, then a lot of dawdling-grazing-ambling. As foot predators, we don't have the overall speed, but we just keep going, and going...
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Post by Stormrider on May 18, 2011 10:53:55 GMT -6
I have never timed our horses on a trail ride! At a walk, they can move out a bit or slow down if they see something ahead they aren't sure of. But I would definately say that horses walk faster than people walk--we would most likely have to do a jog alongside the horse at a walk.
Small ponies (such as shetland ponies) would walk more slowly than a horse, but the Icelandic as Vanye mentioned are larger stronger ponies and would be able to walk faster.
Now a large group of riders like Bilbo's group would take longer to cover ground than just one or two riders. Someone's horse(s) will end up going slower or faster than others in a large group.
If Bilbo's group was in no hurry, they would most likely just walk rather than trot or lope. But I thought Thorin would have been in a hurry to get to the Lonely Mountain so it surprises me that they took so long according to the timeline!
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Post by Andorinha on May 18, 2011 12:14:35 GMT -6
Here's the Wikipedia take on "Horse Gait" -- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait"The walk is a four-beat gait that averages about 4 miles per hour (6.4 km/h)." "The trot is a two-beat gait that has a wide variation in possible speeds, but averages about 8 miles per hour (13 km/h)." "The canter is a controlled, three-beat gait that usually is a bit faster than the average trot, but slower than the gallop. The average speed of a canter is between 10–17 mph, (16–27 km/h) depending on the length of the stride of the horse." "The gallop is very much like the canter, except that it is faster, more ground-covering, and the three-beat canter changes to a four-beat gait. It is the fastest gait of the horse, averaging about 25 to 30 miles per hour (40 to 48 km/h), and in the wild is used when the animal needs to flee from predators or simply cover short distances quickly. Horses seldom will gallop more than a mile or two (about 1.5–3 km) before they need to rest, though horses can sustain a moderately-paced gallop for longer distances before they become winded and have to slow down." ________________________ I think there are probably more limitations on horse/ pony speed than I was at first thinking. The vital element missing here is just how long a horse/ pony can sustain the various gaits. A horse galloping at 25 mph would do 2 miles in T = D/R. T = 25/2 = 12.5 minutes, after which the animal needs to rest. But, for how many miles can a horse sustain a canter, trot? I assume a walk of 4 mph, or even a faster walk of 6 mph could be sustained a lot longer than the faster gaits. LOL, certainly the old U.S. Cavalry records must have worked out a formula for figuring how long you could expect a horse (with average weight saddle and rider) to sustain a walk, trot, canter or gallop? I'll see if I can find something from the Civil War cavalry manuals... Definitely, Thorin and company turn up the heat when they ride Beorn's ponies long hours at high rates of speed going from Beorn's Home to the mouth of the Elven Path in Mirkwood. If JRRT gives us the number of days required for them to get there, it might give us an idea of just how fast pony travel could be, when the riders really have need of speed?
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Post by Stormrider on May 18, 2011 14:33:45 GMT -6
Thoroughbreds can run longer distances at higher speeds that is why they are used for the Kentucky Derby etc.
Quarter horses have more strength and speed for shorter distances ie quarter mile racing. Now they are breeding half quarter horse to half thoroghbred and get the Appendix horse for the quarter mile race. I guess the thoroughbred adds more speed to the mix.
Also the eventing horses for cross country jumping and stadium jumping are the warmbloods (trekaners, etc.) and you will also see thoroughbred mixed in for those type of eventing horses.
and the breeds go on and on...
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Post by fanuidhol on May 18, 2011 15:13:49 GMT -6
Just some random thoughts: JRRT trained horses for a time in WWI. Icelandic horses (which are generally small) have been clocked at 30 mph doing their "flying pace". If JRRT used William Morris's Icelandic Travel Journal as a template, he might be using Icelandic horses to base his miles a day average. Fan
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Post by Vanye on May 19, 2011 1:46:34 GMT -6
Guess that I overestimated a horses' walking speed as my horse was a fast walker, she was half thoroughbred/half mustang, 15.3 hands w/long legs & we would go up to thirty miles in a day of riding. Trotting is very uncomfortable to sit so if you do not rise to the trot or post the trot you will be very miserable in a short time-especially if you are a chubby middle aged Hobbit! An Icelandic pony does a smooth, gliding amble type of gait which covers ground very quickly. 8^)
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Post by Stormrider on May 19, 2011 5:22:08 GMT -6
It depends on the horse, some horses don't have that choppy a trot. Desi Baggins's Melony (appendix) is very smooth in all her gaits while my Storm and Toi both are somewhat choppy--Storm is not as choppy as Toi. They are full quarter horses. Posting does help but I ride western and posting is what you do in english riding. In western riding you learn to sit the trot--some people are good at that--but I have to work at it to sit a good seat while trotting!
Yes, people can ride a good distance in a full day. Vanye, when you rode for 30 miles were you just walking or did you do a variety of gaits? On a trail ride through the forest preseves, we usually walk. Once in a while if we come to a very flat wide and mostly straight path, we will trot or lope for a bit.
With a large traveling party as Bilbo and Company, I would think they would stick to just walking. All the Dwarves were different sizes and ages and I don't think JRRT mentions whether Dwarves are good riders or not! They may need to ride mules or donkeys down into their mountains while mining but not sure how often they would ride outside on the road. So considering riding abilities, they would have taken a slower pace so no one had any riding incidents.
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Post by Andorinha on May 19, 2011 8:55:40 GMT -6
Different horse, different gait-speeds... Yeah, Vanye, I've noticed a good range of speeds on the net for different types of horses, some walk quite rapidly compared to others, the Wikipedia article probably gives us a general average for the gaits. Yeah, Fan, I had forgotten that Tolkien started his military service in the cavalry camps, so he should have had a pretty good idea about the distances and speeds a horse could reliably handle in a day-after-day, long term journey. Apparently, others have looked at the material from Middle-earth before us, an interesting compilation is to be found at: www.theoriginalseries.com/traveltimes.htmThe minimum times are loosely based on a horse traveling 12-15 mph, with rest breaks dropping the average to approximately 10mph. ... The average times are calculated, loosely, on 20-30 miles per day, (depending on terrain) with a rest day every 4-6 days. Sitting on a walking horse for hours and hours at a time is agonizing. It is much easier to trot and canter 25 or 50 miles than to walk/jog 15. -for the horse as well as the rider (speaking of a fit horse) A horse can walk about 3mph so that gives you about ten mile legs at the walk between breakfast and lunch and lunch and supper. Notice those are average times, not maximum times. (Travel Routes and Times) Another site mentions that a wild horse, in an average day of wandering, will cover about 26 miles linear distance. So, with a 20 - 30 mile daily range, a horse is not much faster than a disciplined, and fit band of foot-sloggers. In the U.S. military a daily distance (over fair terrain) is set at 20 miles, and in a pinch a driven band of infantry could be "force-marched" for around 40 miles. Stonewall Jackson's Civil War infantry were often moved in this grueling fashion, and took the nickname "Foot Cavalry." I suppose the upward limits of horse-travel speed could be found with the Pony Express. Here they tried to move a horse as long as they could, as fast as they could with frequent changes of mounts from station to station. This would give us comparable distances per day over which a message could be relayed when we look at the feats of Gondor's errand-riders, like Hirgon. But, for normal, long-distance travel, without using remounts, the 20 to 30 mile day's journey seems the usual standard. So, the Dwarves do appear to be moving eastward with no sense of haste. The only real deadline they had, would be reaching Erebor in time for Durin's Day -- but at this early phase of their journey they were as yet unaware that they had even this deadline to meet. Elrond had to find the secret Moon-letters in Rivendell before any sense of urgency might enthuse the Dwarves. LOL, you know, Stormrider, I think you are quite right, I'll bet the Dwarves were not good, experienced riders, and rather than take a few tumbles a day, they simply let the ponies find their own comfortable pace -- and, of course, the ponies chose a suitably sedate one! __________________________ Pony Express Feats of WonderBuffalo Bill made the longest non-stop ride from Red Buttes Station to Rocky Ridge Station and back when he found that his relief rider had been killed. The distance of 322 miles over one of the most dangerous portions of the entire trail was completed in 21 hours and 40 minutes using 21 horses. (Pony Express History) www.xphomestation.com/frm-history.htmlWow, if I've got the math right, each horse would have done 1.03 hours of traveling, so each horse would have averaged 15.3 miles of distance before it was exchanged. This is interesting, shows me that a horse cannot be expected to gallop, full-out at 30 mph for more than a few minutes. So the best that could be maintained over an hour's time was about a half-gallop pace, a cantering speed of 15mph? I guess we should expect then, a well managed, fit horse to make 30 miles per day (if there are no mounts to be exchanged), and a well motivated human hiker could make an average of 20 miles per day in a similar long journey, sustained effort. So horses would give us about a 1/3rd advantage in terms of long-journey speed.
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Post by Stormrider on May 20, 2011 5:17:10 GMT -6
Great information, Andorinha! I never knew much about horse travel speeds and distance covered at different gaits before.
Good old Buffalo Bill. Yeah I don't think they rode at full gallop for a full hour. They would have had many horses drop (maybe not dead but too exhausted to go on). They would also have to save some good speed strength in case they were attacked by Indians.
Let's watch and see how well the dwarves ride when the Hobbit movie comes out!
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Post by Andorinha on May 20, 2011 9:26:19 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "Let's watch and see how well the dwarves ride when the Hobbit movie comes out!"
Absolutely! LOL, I'm looking forward to seeing 13 dwarves and a hobbit on pony back, especially after reading Gimli's complaints about taking a mount when they meet Eomer in Rohan:
" 'It may be well enough for this lord of the race of Gondor, as he claims,' [Eothain] said, 'but who has heard of a horse of the Mark being given to a Dwarf?'
" 'No one,' said Gimli. 'And do not trouble: no one will ever hear of it. I would sooner walk than sit on the back of any beast so great, free or begrudged.' "
(TTT, "The Riders of Rohan," p. 51, pap bk ver)
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