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Post by Andorinha on Aug 26, 2011 10:36:23 GMT -6
Ooo. Had not thought about the movie, wonder if the editors will cut that scene as not "advancing the narrative," and not having enough "kiddie-shock" value? Now, if the spiders "up-top" chasing the butterflies were gigantic, and they pursue Bilbo down the tree, maybe they would include the scene? Nonetheless, it is a lovely moment, a quiet sort of happy pause before the next big-action incident. These "pauses" are a frequent device JRRT used, and I think they set up the succeeding, tumultuous events quite nicely. I like having a breathing space before the next roller-coaster plunge...
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In this section of their trudging through the forest, we also have our first intimation that the Dwarves and Bilbo have come to the habitable part of the woods -- habitable at least for the Elves.
"At times they heard disquieting laughter. Sometimes there was singing in the distance too. The laughter was the laughter of fair voices not of goblins, and the singing was beautiful, but it sounded eerie and strange, and they were not comforted, rather they hurried on from those parts with what strength they had left." (The Hobbit, "Flies and Spiders," p. 134)
Here I get a strong sense of foreboding, and I think the same sort of "perilous charm" that enthuses the poems, "Loony/ The Sea Bell/ Frodo's Dreame" stands out here as well. These are not the friendly/ hospitable Elves of Rivendell, these Elves seem, just by this introduction alone, to be "dangerous," wayward, eldritch -- beings best avoided...
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Aug 26, 2011 17:47:49 GMT -6
Ooo. Had not thought about the movie, wonder if the editors will cut that scene as not "advancing the narrative," and not having enough "kiddie-shock" value? Now, if the spiders "up-top" chasing the butterflies were gigantic, and they pursue Bilbo down the tree, maybe they would include the scene? Nonetheless, it is a lovely moment, a quiet sort of happy pause before the next big-action incident. These "pauses" are a frequent device JRRT used, and I think they set up the succeeding, tumultuous events quite nicely. I like having a breathing space before the next roller-coaster plunge... I hope they do include it. It's a great moment. I love the way it was portrayed in the animated Hobbit movie. Bilbo is struck by the beauty of the butterflies and the view from the treetops. You then hear his inner monologue: "I wondered if I'd ever see my cozy little hobbit-hole again. I wondered...if I wanted to." Very moving scene and a pivotal change in Bilbo's character. Here I get a strong sense of foreboding, and I think the same sort of "perilous charm" that enthuses the poems, "Loony/ The Sea Bell/ Frodo's Dreame" stands out here as well. These are not the friendly/ hospitable Elves of Rivendell, these Elves seem, just by this introduction alone, to be "dangerous," wayward, eldritch -- beings best avoided... Just got to this section in my reread recently. I was struck by how the depiction of the Wood-elves is similar to many old European stories of faeries and elves -- the weird and eerie sight of them dancing and merrymaking in a dimly lit "faerie ring" at night. Anyone who dares approach either scares them off or is bewitched and abducted if they dare set foot inside the ring. Tolkien definitely seemed to be drawing from the old myths in this scene as the dwarves approach the Wood-elf campfires. But maybe I'm jumping the gun here. Are you just at the laughter, not the campfire scene yet?
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 27, 2011 7:49:47 GMT -6
I would hate for PJ to cut the tree climbing/butterfly scene. At this point, everyone needs to have a nice peaceful moment before the terrifying adventures ahead.
The Rivendell elves seem more modern while the Mirkwood elves are more wild and native. I think that is why the music seems beautiful, eerie, and strange. The company hearing that in what so far has been a perilous woods and not knowing who (or what) was doing the singing, would be frightening. They may have thought it was spirits or a beautiful witch and something to avoid.
And Dwarves do not like Elves (and vise versa) at this point in the history of Middle-earth. Seeing the elves at their feast in their ethereal glow would be an encounter to avoid, if at all possible.
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Post by Vanye on Aug 27, 2011 12:54:44 GMT -6
Time to catch up again! So, on the 24th-the day after Bombur woke up-the company is taken captive by the wood elves. Had they less curiosity they might have avoided this long detour in their adventure- but alas & alack they have an insatiable need to know plus they were getting quite hungry! So if nothing else their inquisitiveness landed them '3 hots & a cot' for the time being.
But I believe that you will see a lot of growth in Bilbo's resourcefulness as a result of his being separated from the others as he is forced to use his 'little grey cells' in order to save himself, the dwarves & 'The Adventure'. It is sort of a crash course in survival for him there in the Halls of the Elvenking! 8^)
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 27, 2011 13:04:43 GMT -6
RE Fredeghar's: "But maybe I'm jumping the gun here. Are you just at the laughter, not the campfire scene yet?"
Hmm, let's see. As I'm reading it, with Vanye's date of the 23rd for Bombur's wakening, it would be the 20th when the party first "heard" the eldritch voices; and then during the evening of the 23rd -- just after Bombur wakes up -- the group has its first of three phydical encounters with the "Fairy Rings" of the Wood Elves. So, probably, early on the 24th Thorin is taken by the Elves; and then comes the fight with the spiders for the rest of the Dwarves and Bilbo. This fight runs on through the 24th (The Hobbit, p. 154), and then the day after the spider-fight, the 12 remaining Dwarves are captured -- so that would be the 25th?
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Yeah, Freddie -- at this point in his narrative, JRRT really seems to be following the older traditions wherein Elves are sometimes just as bad for mortal humans as goblins, trolls, the "undead" might be... I think that we soon find Tolkien trying to meliorate this impact by explaining to his readers that his own Elves are not as bad as the English folkloric traditions might have them:
"The feasting people were the Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For the most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft in the making of beautiful and marvelous things, before some came back into the Wider World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon ... and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People." (The Hobbit, pp 151-52)
Here, we have JRRT sort of "cleaning-up" his Wood-elves, who may be a suspicious lot, and wary of all strangers, but still are not as down-right malicious as many of the traditional, early Victorian elves, or the ancient Celtic or Germanic Elves. Compared with the King of Elfland and his people (from the 1850s mythologies of Britain, see especially the Childe Rowland tales of Joseph Jacobs) the Tolkien Wood-elves are indeed a fairly mild bunch. But still, the older, more dangerous aspect of the traditional Elves can yet be seen in the Wood-elves of The Hobbit.
As Fredeghar points out: "Tolkien definitely seemed to be drawing from the old myths in this scene as the dwarves approach the Wood-elf campfires."
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RE Stormrider: "And Dwarves do not like Elves (and vise versa) at this point in the history of Middle-earth. Seeing the elves at their feast in their ethereal glow would be an encounter to avoid, if at all possible."
Yes, I think this mutual recrimination between Elves and Dwarves is one more element of continuity between The Silmarillion and The Hobbit. Only the absolute need of starvation led the Dwarves to seek assistance from the Elves.
Later on, in LOTR, we have several statements of just how dangerous it might be for mortal Men to contact the Elves. The Rohirim, as Eomer makes clear, felt that the Elves should be avoided if at all possible. Boromir seems to have gotten along fairly well with the Rivendell Elves, but again, he feels very shy about involving himself with the Elves of Lorien, and fears meeting Galadriel lest he come out heavily "scathed." Even Faramir, who revers the Elves, feels it is better to avoid them, lest one come away from such a meeting with some great change.
Even in the Middle-earth mythologies, I think, I would approach the Elves with some care myself, unless a moderator like Gandalf might be on hand...
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 30, 2011 6:04:59 GMT -6
Andorinha said:Is it that the Elves are dangerous to mortal Men or just rumours or tales to make mortal Men believe they were dangerous to them so that mortal Men were not curious about the Elves or at the very least wary of the Elves and left them alone? Granted there is great strength in the Elves and they have fought long in the First and Second Ages against Melkor/Morgoth, but I thought they also joined with mortal Men in some of those battles (or mortal Men joined the Elves). I would think anyone meeting Elves would come away with changes because they are so mysterious. But would that be a bad thing?
----------------- It is now Aug. 30th and the Dwarves have been held captive by Thranduil since the 24th. Let's go back to the forest while the hungry Dwarves watch with drooling mouths while the Wood Elves feast and make merry!
The first warning of the feast seems to come from Bombur who has been dreaming of it in his enchanted sleep! This happens shortly after Bilbo's butterfly tree climb. They were eating a few scraps of crumbs that were left and it started raining which also remined them that they were thirsty, too. Then Bombor woke up and was hungry. "Why ever did I wake up! I was having such beautiful dreams. I dreamed I was walking in a forest rather like this one, only lit with torches on the trees and lamps swinging from the branches and fires burnig on the ground; and there was a great feast going on, going on for ever. A woodland king was there with a crown of leaves, and there was a merry singing, and I could not count or describe the things there were to eat and drink." This only made Thorin angry to hear of a dream feast after having to lugg Bombur around for days!
They continue on with Bombor wailing that he is so hungry and can't walk any longer. The rest of the Dwarves would not alow him to lie down and go back to sleep and kept him going anyway. Then Balin who was in the lead calls out that he thought he saw a twinkle of light in the forest. They all looked and saw way off in the distance a red twinkle and then more sprang out near it. Thorin remembers Beorn's and Gandalf's warnings to stay on the path. He is afraid that a feast would do them no good if they never got back from it. They argued a long time and finally agreed to send out a couple of spies but couldn't agree who to send! Bombur kept describing all the good things to eat and they couldn't stand it any longer so they all plunged in the woods together.
As soon as the Dwarves enter the ring of Elvish feast light, all the lights went out as if by magic! Then they bumbled around in the dark bumping into trees and finally found each other again and decided to settle down for the night. Then Dori noticed the lights coming out again and there were even more than the first time. They all jumped up and followed the glow of the lights. But Thorin would not let them all go crashing in this time and decided that Bilbo would go talk to them alone because he would not be frightening to the Elves. The Dwarves pushed Bilbo into the clearing before he had a chance to put on his Ring and ***poof!*** the lights went out again. This time it was more difficult to find each other and they couldn't find the hobbit until Dori stumbled across him. They couldn't wake him easily because Bilbo was having the lovely dreams now! Once again they saw the lights and tried again to get food and help from the Elves, but this time Thorin stepped out into the clearing. Lights went out again. This time, Bilbo was all by himself calling all the Dwarves names and the Dwarves were doing the same; but the sounds because further and further away and then sounded like cries for help. Then far away the sounds all died out and Bilbo was left alone in the darkness!
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What about the Elves ability to ***poof*** out an entire feast in the blink of an eye? I think it was Andorinha who mentioned an Evlish Ring. Who held all the Evlish Rings? I thought it was Cirdan (who gave his to Gandalf), Galadriel, and Elrond who held the Rings. What other elvish magic could the Wood Elves have to be able to do such an incredible vanishing act?
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 30, 2011 17:05:56 GMT -6
Speaking of Elves and their "magic", I keep picturing PJ's image from FOTR when the Elves pass Frodo and Sam as they are leaving the Shire. The Elves were so gauzy, hazy, bright lightish and their singing was very otherworldly. No wonder people thought of them in awe and fear.
However, the Elves of Rivendell don't seem that way. They are more human as PJ depicted them. Also I had the same feeling as I read The Hobbit and FOTR that they were more human and not as mysterious. Although in the Hobbit, they seem more silly with their songs teasing the Dwarves.
In Lothlorien, PJ again depicted that gauzy, hazy, bright lightish feel again and the otherworldy singing, although it was mournful singing for Gandalf.
It will be interesting to see what the Wood Elves will be like in the movie. I remember us debating on these forums whether the Wood Elves were evil or less tolerant of other peoples. Legolas always seemed rather human to me, too. But when you read the passages in the Hobbit with the feast and vanishing lights, you get another otherworldly feel to Elves.
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 30, 2011 22:18:24 GMT -6
Hmm, Stormrider, you bring up some very interesting questions here. I'll be back tomorrow...
Especially: Stormrider "Is it that the Elves are dangerous to mortal Men or just rumours or tales to make mortal Men believe they were dangerous to them so that mortal Men were not curious about the Elves or at the very least wary of the Elves and left them alone?"
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 31, 2011 6:02:29 GMT -6
I did a little digging on Elven Magic. I found some comments of JRRT's in Letters. Letter 131 To Milton Waldman - page 146: -------- In the same letter futher along - page 152: I do remember a discussion about the Elven Rings creating beautiful things and once the One Ring was destroyed, the beauty would also fade. More of the diminishing theme. I found this thread on Magic in Middle-earth: tolkiensring.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Things&action=display&thread=683 I want to go back and re-read it more slowly since it looks like we captured a lot of magic in this thread! But I do not believe it is the thread I was speaking of above. Still need to do some searching.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 1, 2011 8:19:55 GMT -6
Wow, great research, Stormrider! Digesting it now, but this is the first week of school, gotta dash off to class, but your material has opened several "lines of discussion" in my mind. Be back soon!
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 4, 2011 8:24:19 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "Is it that the Elves are dangerous to mortal Men or just rumours or tales to make mortal Men believe they were dangerous to them so that mortal Men were not curious about the Elves or at the very least wary of the Elves and left them alone? Granted there is great strength in the Elves and they have fought long in the First and Second Ages against Melkor/Morgoth, but I thought they also joined with mortal Men in some of those battles (or mortal Men joined the Elves). I would think anyone meeting Elves would come away with changes because they are so mysterious. But would that be a bad thing?" (my emphasis) I think this becomes quite complicated, especially if we take the Middle-earth mythology as a whole. Tolkien's own conception of the Elves seems to have undergone several important shifts through time: 1. Early "borrowings" from classical fairy tales, in which Tolkien's first Elves were quite a bit like the victorian fairy, diminutive in size, associated with flowers, mischievous magic, pranks, etc. 2. The Silmarillion material, where Elves become just about human-sized, and develop a more "serious" personality base, becoming more like the Teutonic heroes/ gods of the sagas than the "pixie" type fairies of Victorian fancy. In this stage, the Elves can be magnificent, like Finrod Felagund who shows no "racism," or animosity (at least towards Men, not sure what he thought of Dwarves) -- but, simultaneously we have decidedly "nasty" activities going on among other Elves. There was apparently some stress/ conflict between the new-come Men and the Green Elves before Finrod took Men folk in hand and began their "elvish" education. Some Elves hunted the Petty Dwarves as though these creatures were animals. Eol get his wife through theft/ "kidnapping," rape of the bride. Maeglin will become a traitor. Saeros, who acts like Unferth in Beowulf, brings about his own death after teasing Turin. Then we have the very "nasty" behaviour of Feanor with his Ship Elf massacre, and the theft of their vessels. Feanor even abandons his own Noldoran kin so that they have to pass through the ice fields without ship-support. 3. The Elves of The Hobbit, here we have two different Elven groups, the Folk of Rivendell, who seem to be quite decent folk, not a threat to Men, Dwarves, or Hobbits; and then the Wood-elves, who do have historic grudges against Dwarves in general, and allow this past to influence their behaviour concerning Thorin and company, even though Thorin's ancestors had nothing to do with the old quarrels. These Wood-elves can be tricksie, they do not actively interfere with Thorin's group, do not "arrest" them for simply using the magical pathway, but neither do they try to assist the starving/ thirsting travelers. In ancient times, there were often "hospitality" rules that demanded one give assistance to those in need, whether or not they were of your own folk. These Wood-elves were guilty of gross indifference to the suffering of others, they could easily have helped Thorin and company, but chose not to get involved (until, three times, their feasting rings were disturbed by the begging Dwarves). These Elves are "perilous" to approach, and I wonder if they treated the Woodsmen in a similar fashion? It could also be (from very ancient encounters with the Wild Elves, the remnant Avari groups in the East) that Men (and Dwarves) might have had some ugly encounters from which arose the traditional, folkloric tales about dangerous Elves. From these situations arose the stories that Elves were in general a dangerous, touchy, erratic folk, magical, and dangerous all at one go -- creatures to be avoided. 4. The Elves of LOTR. Here, I think Tolkien tries to give us a deeper understanding of Elves. The Rivendell lot are, again, friendly, willing to go out of their way to help Frodo, they are actively engaged in the politics of the other peoples, even Boromir does not seem to be frightened/ wary of them. Compare Boromir's ease in Rivendell with his almost phobic reaction against going to Lothlorien. These Elves out east, make Boromir decidedly uneasy. He views them as a "common Man" might, seeing them as a peril that should better be avoided. That he brings his own problems with him into Lothlorien, does not alter the fact that for him, the Golden Wood is a place of peril, and there he first realizes what he wants most, The Ring. Boromir's Fall begins here, even if it is his own flawed personality that is, at root, to blame. So, maybe the final lesson about the perilous nature of Elves is that only the "pure in heart" may meet them with impunity? Certainly Gimli has no trouble as a Dwarf when he interacts with the folk of Rivendell, though he does get into a squabble there with the eastern Wood-elf Legolas. Again, out East, Gimli has some initial trouble in Lothlorien, and he is discriminated against by the border guard Elves, and even Celeborn is not very gracious to him, though Galadriel corrects this quickly. Had Galadriel not been present, who knows how Gimli, innocent of wrong himself, might have fared among the Galadhrim? So, I'm sort of thinking here, in answer to Stormrider's querry -- "Is it that the Elves are dangerous to mortal Men or just rumours or tales to make mortal Men believe they were dangerous to them so that mortal Men were not curious about the Elves or at the very least wary of the Elves and left them alone?" -- there does seem to be a real danger to some Mortals (Men and Dwarves especially) when they contact the Elves. It depends, apparently, on which Elves you meet -- the Rivendell group, or the Eastern Elves... To some extent, I can see this also as a way Elves might have of keeping Men and Dwarves at a comfortable distance, but in the end, does not this estrangement serve the purposes of Morgoth/ Sauron? It isolates Men, Elves, Dwarves who otherwise might more effectively unite in resistance to Evil. I think there are some passages in The Silmarillion to this effect, that Morgoth deliberately encouraged "racism" among his foes, encouraged their xenophobia. And, I recall several statements to this effect by Gandalf, that one of the greatest of the problems facing the foes of Sauron was their inability to cooperate whole-heartedly. Thanks Stormy!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 5, 2011 5:49:36 GMT -6
When I first read LOTR and The Hobbit, I had more of a mysterious and magical "feel" of the Elves. But when we did Megn1's Silmarillion Study, I was very shocked at the things the Elves did and really had a hard time absorbing it. The first and second ages were a very difficult time with Morgoth/Melkor and the stress the Elves went through, some going toward Valinor, some staying in Middle-Earth. Thanks, for reminding me of The Silmarillion struggles. I only read it once and for me it was difficult to get through it the first time.
By the time we get to the Third Age and the setting for The Hobbit and LOTR, the Elves must have had it with everyone and wanted to keep to themselves and be left alone.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 5, 2011 6:22:49 GMT -6
But we are still behind in Bilbo's Great Adventure!
By now, Bilbo is alone in the woods and he can't find the Dwarves! He is very miserable but realizes he can't do anything until morning and he had a little bit of sunlight. But alas! Bilbo fell asleep and woke up finding that something sticky was around his legs! A huge spider was tying him up! When he tried to get up it came at him and he had to beat it off with his hands as it tried to poison him! Lucky for Bilbo he remembered his sword and drew it out and cut his legs free and he attacked the spider by sticking it in one of its eyes and finally killed it. This was a turning point for Bilbo. He fought off a great enemy in the semi-darkness alone. He felt like a different person--much bolder and fiercer. He wiped the blood off his sword and put it back into its sheather. Then Bilbo said "I will give you a name and I shall call you Sting!"
With his new determination and strength, he set off to find the Dwarves. Eventually he found a place that was much darker and denser in the forest. He noticed many spider webs as he crept closer. Hiding behind a tree he saw many spiders creaking and hissing in their spider voices but he could understand their words! They were talking about the Dwarves and the struggle they gave them in capturing them and how juicy they must be underneath their thick skins. Then Bilbo saw the woven bundles handing from the trees with bits of Dwarf beard, nose, hood, or foot sticking out of the webbing.
Lucky for Bilbo he had The Ringand put it on, as he threw stones at a spider that was headed toward the fattest bundle on the tree! He kept pelting stones at the spiders and got them riled up and he teased the spiders away from the Dwarves with his Attercop song. Then sneaking back to the Dwarves, he killed a spider who had been left behind to guard the Dwarves. Taking off The Ring, Bilbo cut the Dwarves free so when the spiders came back again they were all able to fight them off with knives or sticks. The spiders could see Bilbo now! The spiders were making webs around the trees to keep the Dwarves in.
He finally had to let the Dwarves in on his secret and told them he was going to disappear. They were still befuddled from the spider poison and didn't understand right away. But Bilbo's plan was to draw the spiders away again and have the Dwarves make their way back toward the last Elf feast area they saw. This plan worked and they all met up back at an Elf fire where Bilbo had to fill them in on the whole story of his Ring and ability to disappear. Then they realized that Thorin was not with them!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 5, 2011 18:37:33 GMT -6
I think this is Bilbo's first really important moment in which he shows us what stuff he is really made of, don't you? All alone in a dark strange forest and brave enough to continue on and try to find his companions.
After waking up and finding himself being trussed up by a spider might have made someone else freeze, but Bilbo used his wits and acted quickly to bring out his sword, stab the spider in the eye, free his legs, and kill the spider. It was a very good moment to give his sword its name, Sting. It was so appropriate!
It still bothers me that Bilbo used The Ring in Mirkwood with Sauron, the Necromancer, residing further south in Dol Guldur. Why didn't Sauron sense that The Ring was near? Was he still too weak and did not have enough power yet? Or wouldn't the Ringwraiths have some sense of it? Was the White Council held in Lothlórien? Perhaps Sauron had his eye turned that way with his attention on what may be happening in the White Council. Lothlórien was not that far from Dol Guldur.
I don't really know much about the White Council. Did it take place after Gandalf left the Dwarves and Bilbo at Mirkwood's edge? Was there an attack by the White Council on Dol Guldur during this time?
I think there might be something in Unfinished Tales in The Quest for Erebor or The Hunt for the Ring chapters. I think I will do a little reading.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 6, 2011 6:12:21 GMT -6
From The Tale of Years at the end of The Return of the King and Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-Earth I discovered this about the White Council:
1. It was Galadriel who first summoned the White Council together in Third Age 2463. The Wizards were summoned. We know that included Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, but did it include the Blue Wizards? For the Eldar: Galdriel, Elrond, Círdan, and a few other high Eldar. It took place about three years after the Watchful Peace. In this same time frame, Déagol found The One Ring and was murdered by Sméagol.
2. In Third Age 2851, Saruman was beginning to desire The One Ring himself. Gandalf had proposed a plan to attack Dol Guldur but Saruman overruled Gandalf and there was no attack. Secretly on the side, Saruman starts to search near the Gladden Fields for The Ring.
3. Third Age 2941, the year Thorin and Company and Bilbo set out for The Lonely Mountain, the White Council meets again around August and Saruman finally agrees to Gandalf's attack plans for Dol Guldur before Sauron should make an attack on Lothlórien. Sauron is driven into Mordor.
4. Third Age 2953 is the last meeting of the White Council. Saruman lies to mislead the Council into believing that The One Ring has flowed down the Anduin and has been lost in the Sea. Gandalf stops worrying about Bilbo's Ring.
So...It is August where our discussion of Bilbo and the Dwarves has ended. Bilbo has been using his Ring to hide from the spiders. I assume that the White Council is being held in Lothlórien since Galadriel is the one who summoned the Council together in the first place and that they feel Sauron could make a move against Lothlórien.
Therefore, it makes sense that Sauron was preoccupied with what the White Council was up to and was fighting off an attack from the army of the White Council and he was driven from Mirkwood into Mordor. Would that have been enough to mask his sense of The One Ring being used further north in Mirkwood?
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