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Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2012 20:45:23 GMT -6
A line, to post and discuss those poems available to Tolkien, those poems which probably influenced his own thought development concerning Middle-earth.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2012 20:47:08 GMT -6
John Keats (1795–1821)
La Belle Dame Sans Merci Ballad I.
O WHAT can ail thee, knight-at-arms, Alone and palely loitering? The sedge has wither’d from the lake, And no birds sing. II.
O what can ail thee, knight-at-arms! 5 So haggard and so woe-begone? The squirrel’s granary is full, And the harvest’s done. III.
I see a lily on thy brow With anguish moist and fever dew, 10 And on thy cheeks a fading rose Fast withereth too. IV.
I met a lady in the meads, Full beautiful—a faery’s child, Her hair was long, her foot was light, 15 And her eyes were wild. V.
I made a garland for her head, And bracelets too, and fragrant zone; She look’d at me as she did love, And made sweet moan. 20 VI.
I set her on my pacing steed, And nothing else saw all day long, For sidelong would she bend, and sing A faery’s song. VII.
She found me roots of relish sweet, 25 And honey wild, and manna dew, And sure in language strange she said— “I love thee true.” VIII.
She took me to her elfin grot, And there she wept, and sigh’d fill sore, 30 And there I shut her wild wild eyes With kisses four. IX.
And there she lulled me asleep, And there I dream’d—Ah! woe betide! The latest dream I ever dream’d 35 On the cold hill’s side. X.
I saw pale kings and princes too, Pale warriors, death-pale were they all; They cried—“La Belle Dame sans Merci Hath thee in thrall!” 40 XI.
I saw their starved lips in the gloam, With horrid warning gaped wide, And I awoke and found me here, On the cold hill’s side. XII.
And this is why I sojourn here, 45 Alone and palely loitering, Though the sedge is wither’d from the lake, And no birds sing.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2012 21:03:45 GMT -6
I vrennil vain ben-dihenada Sindarin Elvish translation of 'La Belle Dame sans Merci' by John Keats. www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/I vrennil vain ben-dihenad Man naeg mathal, ae maethor veren, Erui reniol ar nimp? I thâr pellen uin ael Ar ú-linnar in aew. Man naeg mathal, ae maethor veren, I naer ar pen-lalaith? I dorech en-nâr pant, Ar tolthad en-iau coren. Cenin loth erin hin lín, Na naeg ar lhêw limminnen, Ar mi nêf lín veril firiel, I lagor pêl. Govannen vrennil na i nain, I bainwain, hên in-edhil, Finnel dín and, i dâl dín lim, Ar hin dín vrêg. Agoren rê an ndôl dín, Ar mêr adh rainc ar loth; Cenn na nin sui meliel, Ar pent na lhoss velui. Nan roch nín meleg harn, Ar ú-gennin nad an aur and, An tirn na venath linnol, in glêr edhellin. Hirn hylch velui enni, Ar 'lê throvan ar Viruvor, Na ú-istassen lam e pent, 'Gen melin thenin' Tunc nin na i fela dín, Ar ennas nêr dín siriant, Ar ennas sollin hin dín mrêg mithol canad lui. Ar tunc nan êdh nin ennas, Ar ennas oltha enni, ae, I ôl vedui i oltha uireb Nan dalad amon ring. Cennin erain thind, ar conin nimp, ar vaethyr vith, sui firn pain; Nallant 'I vrennil vain ben-dihenad Si baugla le.' Cennin i nêf thairn hýn, Nan gortheb pith edrannen pann, Ar echui nin hirnin si, Nan dalad amon ring. Ar sen an darthon hi, Erui reniol ar nimp, Ir thâr pellen uin ael Ar ú-linnar in aew. John Keats
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jul 17, 2012 1:37:33 GMT -6
I always liked this poem. Why do you feel this influenced Tolkien? Does he mention it somewhere or is there some aspect that reminds you of Middle-earth? I always felt this belonged to the Celtic faerie tradition, rather than Tolkien's preferred Norse/Anglo-Saxon. The idea is that the faeries can be both beautiful and terrible and to love one is perilous. There's a legendary creature called a leanan sidhe that behaves like the Belle Dame does: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leanan_sidheI suppose there's peril in loving elf-maidens for Beren, Tuor, and Aragorn. But it's not the sort where the maiden enslaves them.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 17, 2012 18:55:29 GMT -6
Alas, this is beginning to interest me greatly, Freddie, and I feel a Three Part Dissertation will ensue -- but in brief, foreshadowing the wordy deluge to come:
1. Did Tolkien ever read Keats, and did he make mention of this author and his works? I have not yet found a direct quote from JRRT regarding the above poem, but we do know that he studied Keats, and even sat exams that covered his works. He also borrowed at least one phrase from Keats directly:
"In this quotation, Tolkien alludes to John Keats' sonnet 'On First Looking into Chapman's Homer', a poem that conveys Keats' exhilaration at reading extracts from George Chapman's translations of Homer's The Iliad and Odyssey." (Dimitra Fimi, Tolkien, Race and Cultural History, 2008, chpt 6 note 8 p. 209)
2. Do I personally find similarities of content, form, style, shared concepts between Keats poems and Tolkien's. YES! Have others made this connection before me? Sigh, wish I could claim an academic first here, but I've got about a dozen different authors who beat me to it. Here I'm looking at the romantic concept of "the enthralled lover," with examples such as Melian and Thingol; Beren and Tinuviel; and, in the Tolkien poetics the Goldberry-Bombadil interactions -- which is rather wilder and more "deadly dangerous" than their revised LOTR portrayal. Additionally, elements of what I consider Tolkien's best poem, Loony, or The Sea Bell, seem closely related to Keats' La Belle Dame Sans Merci.
3. Did Tolkien really use a distinctive Nordic tradition style rather than a distinctive Celtic tradition style in his ME works? No, not in my opinion. He might have pretended (to himself) that he "despised" the so-called Celtic form, but, as Verlyn Flieger shows (Question of Time) and Marjorie Burns (Perilous Realms) he really used as much "Celtic" themed material as "Nordic" in his own eclectic compositions. Indeed I am thinking now that there is probably less difference between the supposed two "linguistic-race-based" categories of fairy tale than similarity. Tolkien's attempts to define and divide the Celtic and the Nordic, I find highly overstated, with many dubious, subjective criteria of definition that require a deeper inspection.
4. Romantic Aestheticism: Keats' form of the aesthetic, William Morris' form of the aesthetic, C.S. Lewis' form of aestheticism and Tolkiens' are remarkably similar, though Tolkien and Lewis both sought to replace Keats' "pagan-classical" aestheticism with a competing christian-aestheticism. Still working this up in my own researches, would love to get my mitts on a copy of Disenchanted with their Age: Keats's, Morris's, and Tolkien's Great Escape, by Marie-Noelle Biemer, in Fornet-Ponse, Thomas, ed. Tolkien and Romanticism/Tolkien und Romantik. Bonn: Scriptorium Oxoniae, 2010. p. 60-75. (Hither Shore: Interdisiplinary Journal on Modern Fantasy, Band 7. This work details the connections among Tolkien, Wm. Morris, and John Keats. Maybe Fanuidhol has a copy? LOL.
Any way, I'll be working up this material as time/ health allow.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 18, 2012 6:01:31 GMT -6
Very interesting poem and very spooky at the end! And from Freddie's link: Interesting twist on the fate of the fairy mistress if the mortal refuses--I bet that doesn't happen often! But if they take her up on her offer, she sucks their life away! Definately spooky! I bet it was very difficult for them to find a replacement so they could escape. At least Tolkien's Man/Elf Maiden poems (although ending saddly) were long-lasting and fulfilling for both lovers. They were happy during their time together.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 21, 2012 11:43:00 GMT -6
Thanks for the url connection, Fredeghar. There is, to my mind a great deal of correspondence here with the Nordic tradition "nymph," the Huldra. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HuldraThe huldra may be connected with the German holda. The huldra is also known in Finnish folklore In Scandinavian folklore, the Huldra (in Norwegian culture, derived from a root meaning "covered" or "secret"), or the skogsrå or skogsfru/skovfrue (meaning "Lady (read, counterpart of a Lord) of the forest") or Tallemaja (pine tree Mary) in Swedish culture, is a seductive forest creature. Her name suggests that she is originally the same being as the völva Huld and the German Holda. A male hulder is called a huldu, or in Norway a huldrekall. Male hulders do appear, called Huldrekall. This being is closely related to other subterrestrials, usually called tusser. Like the female counterpart, the huldrkall is a shapeshifter who often lures girls under a fair countenance (Glamour). ... The huldra is a stunningly beautiful, sometimes naked woman with long hair; though from behind she is hollow like an old tree trunk, and has an animal's tail. In Norway, she has a cow's tail, and in Sweden she may have that of a cow or a fox. Further in the north of Sweden, the tail can be entirely omitted in favor of her hollow or bark-covered back. In Norway, the huldra has often been described as a typical dairymaid, wearing the clothes of a regular farm girl, although somewhat more dazzling or prettier than most girls. ...The huldras were held to be kind to colliers, watching their charcoal kilns while they rested. Knowing that she would wake them if there were any problems, they were able to sleep, and in exchange they left provisions for her in a special place. A tale from Närke illustrates further how kind a huldra could be, especially if treated with respect (Hellström 1985:15). A boy in Tiveden went fishing, but he had no luck. Then he met a beautiful lady, and she was so stunning that he felt he had to catch his breath. But, then he realized who she was, because he could see a fox's tail sticking out below the skirt. As he knew that it was forbidden to comment on the tail to the lady of the forest, if it were not done in the most polite manner, he bowed deeply and said with his softest voice, "Milady, I see that your petticoat shows below your skirt". The lady thanked him gracefully and hid her tail under her skirt, telling the boy to fish on the other side of the lake. That day, the boy had great luck with his fishing and he caught a fish every time he threw out the line. This was the huldra's recognition of his politeness. In some traditions, the huldra lures men into the forest to have sexual intercourse with her, rewarding those who satisfy her and often killing those who do not. The Norwegian huldra is a lot less bloodthirsty and may simply kidnap a man or lure him into the underworld. She sometimes steals human infants and replaces them with her own ugly huldrebarn (changeling huldre children). In some cases, the intercourse resulted in a child, being presented to the unknowing father. In some cases, she forces him to marry her. Stories of such relationships were common in Norway a long time - an elderly man from Valdres claimed he had a child among the hulderpeople on Norwegian radio broadcasting. He was still alive around 1980. Sometimes she marries a local farm boy, but when this happens, the glamour leaves her when the priest lays his hand on her, or when she enters the church. Some legends tell of husbands who subsequently treat her badly. Some fairy tales leave out this feature, and only relate how a marriage to a Christian man will cause her to lose her tail, but not her looks, and let the couple live happily ever after. However if she is treated badly, she will remind him that she is far from weak, often by straightening out a horseshoe with her bare hands, sometimes while it is still glowing hot from the forge. If betrayed, the huldra can punish the man severely, as in one case from Sigdal, when she avenged her pride on a young braggart she had sworn to marry, on the promise that he would not tell anybody of her. The boy instead bragged about his bride for a year, and when they met again, she beat him around the ears with her cow's tail. He lost his hearing and his wits for the rest of his life. ...Once there was a married man, who was out looking for his cattle when he came upon a Huldra or skogsrå. Unable to withstand the temptation, he went with her and made love to her becoming obsessed by her. He would return and make love to her every evening after that. Before long it began to be too much for him, draining him to the point where he collapsed. However, still he could not resist her. Eventually it got to be too much for him, the poor man became so exhausted that he could hardly walk. He didn't know what to do, so on one of his visits he asked the Huldra or Skogsrå what he ought to do about a bull he had. He told her that the bull was a problem because it never did anything but mount the cows and wouldn't stop, so that both the bull and cows were completely worn out and the cows had stopped giving milk. Her advice to him was to gather some Tibast, and vandelrot. (Tibast Daphne mezereum or February Daphne, and vandelrot Valeriana officinalis root herbs). So he obtained some tibast and vandelrot and pinned it to himself before going to meet her that evening. As soon as she saw him she cried, "Tibast and vandelrot is sure, fie on me for telling the cure!" And with that she turned around, so that he saw her from behind breaking the spell, and then disappeared. The man in this legend narrowly escapes an obscure doom, which is the theme of the legends. These creatures, even when treated well, are reported to have evil, disruptive intentions, as their very presence fills one with foreboding. Quite a bit of folklore offers advice on how to avoid, conquer or escape from encounters with the Huldra or Skogsrå. (emphases mine)
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jul 22, 2012 3:05:14 GMT -6
Yes, I've heard that legend and can see the parallel with the leanan sidhe. You can probably find a "seductress" type character in almost every mythology -- sirens in Greek myth, succubi in Judeo-Christian legend, etc. But what do they have to do with Tolkien?
I suppose you have a point about the various "enthralled lovers" -- Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien, etc. They are so enraptured by the beauty of a supernatural being that their senses leave them and they're rooted to the spot. But Tolkien's characters didn't have the sinister intentions of the huldra or the leanan sidhe or the others. Would this then be an example of Tolkien Christianizing an old legend? Or just taking the surface-level elements without the darker implications?
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 22, 2012 7:48:54 GMT -6
LOL, Fredeghar, if you are looking for a direct Tolkien connection, smoking gun style, with a letter from JRRT stating: "I used such and such source as a direct model for my own work," you'll probably wait forever (though there is such a Tolkien letter detailing his early borrowings from Morris, who in turn acknowledges his borrowing from Keats). Tolkien, like most authors, is reluctant to admit how much his own creative efforts rely upon fore-running materials. Luckily, I'm not trying to show any such direct borrowing of the "enthralled lover," merely suggesting, in this particular case, that Tolkien had access to Keats' examples of "enthralled lovers," and access to a common fund of fairy tale themes that included Celtic, Norse and perhaps even global themes as you yourself point out: RE Fredeghars': "You can probably find a 'seductress' type character in almost every mythology -- sirens in Greek myth, succubi in Judeo-Christian legend, etc. But what do they have to do with Tolkien?" What indeed!? Quite a lot, I should think. Tolkien did not develop Middle-earth in a vacuum, his vast ranging studies exposed him to a rich variety of themes, characters, patterns of exposition -- all of which he borrowed, digested, and regurgitated to form the bases of his own fantasy realm. I happen to be interested in the processes that led to his personal re-interpretation of the pre-existing mythologies of the world, hence my concerns with how he fits into a global pattern -- Tolkien was indeed a "sub-creator," rather than a creator... In the 1890 - 1910 period, the Victorian-Eduardian British went through an Orientalist enthusiasm. Such works as Algernon Bertram Freeman-Mitford's Tales of Old Japan, dated 1910; and Lafcadio Hearn's Glimpses of Unfamiliar Japan, 1895, sold like hot cakes in England. Did Tolkien actually read them? I'll keep looking for a direct statement that he did, but it would surprise me to find out that he definitely did not. To illustrate this further, there is indeed a "foreign" source available to Tolkien, involving the succubi-like, temptress, non-human female who "enthralls" a mortal lover, a source from half way round the world: From Japanese Folklore, Mizuki Shigeru: www.sarudama.com/japanese_folklore/hannya.shtmlIn Japanese folklore the female demon (oni) Hannya figures prominently. Often depicted in traditional Noh and Bunraku plays using a wooden mask of a fierce and grimacing horned demon, this malicious entity may be Japan's most well-known demon.
...An ancient legend recalls how the female Hannya persecuted all who attempted to pass through the Rashomon gate of Kyoto. A staunch samurai named Watanabe no Tsuna decided to lay in wait for the demon in order to slay it, until he was eventually persuaded by a beautiful young woman to escort her into town. As they travelled, Watanabe happened to glance over his shoulder and saw the young woman transforming into a terrifying demon. As the demon then laid hold of Watanabe, he quickly wielded his sword and cut off the monster's arm. As Hannya fled screaming, Watanabe carefully wrapped the severed arm and later hid it in a secured chest. From Lafcadio Hearn we also have tales of the Kitsune, The Fox, in which the salient features of Tolkien's "enthralled lovers" are quite prominent. academia.issendai.com/foxtales/japan-lafcadio-hearn.shtmlGoblin foxes are peculiarly dreaded in Izumo for three evil habits attributed to them. The first is that of deceiving people by enchantment, either for revenge or pure mischief. The second is that of quartering themselves as retainers upon some family, and thereby making that family a terror to its neighbours. The third and worst is that of entering into people and taking diabolical possession of them and tormenting them into madness. This affliction is called "kitsune-tsuki."
...The favourite shape assumed by the goblin fox for the purpose of deluding mankind is that of a beautiful woman; much less frequently the form of a young man is taken in order to deceive some one of the other sex. Innumerable are the stories told or written about the wiles of fox-women. And a dangerous woman of that class whose art is to enslave men, and strip them of all they possess, is popularly named by a word of deadly insult—kitsune. (emphasis mine) So, it is precisely my point here, that Tolkien was borrowing from long pre-existent sources of fairy tale and folklore when he "sub-created" Middle-earth; he was not limited to a Nordic tradition, nor even a Nordic-Celtic base, he was tapping into ur-typisch (archetypal) human psychology, with examples from near eastern Biblical sources, Chinese and Japanese texts, and I'll bet I can even find Aztec examples! In many of these "enthralled lover" tales, Classical Graeco-Roman (nymph-siren), Nordic (huldra), Celtic (morigan, fairy mistress), even the Japanese Fox-kitsune, the predominant, core elements are the presence of a "beautiful female," possessing "magical" powers (often including shape-shifting and glamour-casting), a deep sexual or love interest, and an element of distinct "peril" to the weaker of the partners. RE Fredeghar's important statement: "But Tolkien's characters didn't have the sinister intentions of the huldra or the leanan sidhe or the others. Would this then be an example of Tolkien Christianizing an old legend? Or just taking the surface-level elements without the darker implications?" Yes, I think Tolkien deliberately "softens" the impact of his "enthralled lover" situations, or at least he usually does so (what about Shelob?). But I'm not sure if this is a "Christianizing" of the situation, I'll think on that some -- or does it represent Tolkien's own yearnings? We could get silly on Freudian analysis here -- did Tolkien's mother-love, desire for a strong, faithful female figure in his life, force him to drop the "darker-implications?" He certainly identified himself as Beren, and his wife Edith as Luthien, I believe this is even inscribed on their joint headstone? Despite the frequent "softening," Tolkien's own examples of "enthralled lovers," follow the basic patterns of Kitsune, Huldra, Leanhaun Shee, Siren quite closely. First, Tolkien uses the element of "peril" when encounters with the Faerie Realm occur (see Boromir's attitude towards the Elven, and the monitory tone of the poem The Sea Bell). Even in "fairy to fairy" encounters there is significant peril when a less powerful male approaches (like a moth to a candle) the superlatively powerful, beautiful female presence. Thingol is at first stunned by Melian, and in some folkloric examples, the unfortunate male may simply die in this stage of his enthrallment. Tolkien gives us a less drastic denouement, Thingol eventually recovers, pursues and wins Melian's favour and love. Nonetheless, the peril still remains, Thingol in many ways becomes dependent upon the eldritch gifts of Melian for his own great success -- it is her protective girdle that long keeps the evil tide of Morgoth's spite from his realm, not his own power. As Fredeghar suggests, unlike other examples of this genre, Tolkien's females are almost uniformly less fickle: Melian, Luthien, Idril, etc, do not withdraw their favours, they do not vampire-like destroy/ consume the objects of their love (though Shelob certainly does!) they become, I think, mutually dependent couples, bonded for life. In this sense, some of the Kitsune of Japan also exhibit a life long constancy of "love" with the mortal of their choice, supporting him, enhancing his power, increasing his luck, and his success until his death. Enough for now, but I'll be back with a more "precise" statement of the many similarities I see between Keats' poem La Belle Dame Sans Merci, and the perilous love of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. In this, the Classical connection of the Siren/ Nymph figures most heavily!
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jul 22, 2012 13:02:08 GMT -6
I wasn't looking for a smoking gun in Tolkien's work, I was simply trying to understand your thought process -- why you thought these characters reflected the perilous faerie lover archetype. I guess you were focusing on the similarities, while I was focusing on the differences. You make a good point about Melian. Thingol's realm was dependent on her power and favor. When she withdrew it, ruin came to Doriath. In this case, it was the kingdom that suffered, not the lover (since he was already dead by other means). Makes you wonder what might have happened if Thingol and Melian had had a falling out while he was alive. Would there be peril in loving a Maia if you happen to piss her off? Enough for now, but I'll be back with a more "precise" statement of the many similarities I see between Keats' poem La Belle Dame Sans Merci, and the perilous love of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. In this, the Classical connection of the Siren/ Nymph figures most heavily! Interesting that you say that. The first time I read The Fellowship of the Ring, I assumed Goldberry was a nymph. I wasn't yet familiar with Tolkien's cosmology so I didn't know what creatures did or didn't exist in Middle-earth. I saw a beautiful, immortal spirit of the river and immediately thought "water-nymph."
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