Hobbit Origins

[Andorinha]

There has been a great deal written about Hobbits, and with Tolkien's concern for the historical backstory, just where, when, and how did the theme of a Little People in "England" enter his Middle-earth?

[Andorinha]

Here is one pundit's take on this issue:

www.thehistoryvault.co.uk/concerning-hobbits/

"Simon J. Cook is an award-winning intellectual historian. His website, Ye Machine, can be found here: yemachine.com. Simon has recently published an electronic essay on J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lost English Mythology (available from Amazon)."

[Stormrider]

Oh! I like how this ties in the little farmers who loved the land and brought about the Hobbit with their love of earth, good food, pipeweed, ale/wine, etc. It also explains some of Tolkien's own struggles with his history of England with the Elves. Good article!

[fanuidhol]

I really enjoyed the article, also. I looked for the essay at amazon...$4.99. Not ready to spend money on it, yet. I'm hoping that the price will go down. So in the mean time, I checked out Cook's other posts and something intrigued me -- how much he was enjoying a historical novel, called Amgalant by Bryn Hammond. Back to Amazon I went, and found the first half for free in the Kindle Edition. I decided to get it, not because it was free, but because I have more than a passing interest in Mongols.

Not really trying to derail this thread but, I worked in a drug store within the Kalmyk Mongolian community back in the early 1980's. And got to see the Dalai Lama, at one of the temples, when he came for a visit.
njmonthly.com/articles/lifestyle/people/meet-the-kalmyks.html
Sorry for the interruption. Now back to the thread.

Cook added another blog post today 1/23 that is related to "Concerning Hobbits". yemachine.com/
He also has other blog posts about Tolkien which I have just discovered, but have not read:
yemachine.com/category/tolkien/
Fan

[Stormrider]

You met the Dahli Lama? How cool is that! It must have been very inspirational.

[fanuidhol]

Did not "actually" meet the Dalai Lama. But, we did make eye contact. It was a smallish gathering. Perhaps, 40 people at the most. And yes, it was one of the highlights of my life. I remember it as if it was yesterday.
Fan

[Andorinha]

Ooooo! That is kool! And thanks for the Kalmyk URL Fan.

Oooo -- Cook has some neat stuff on Beowulf!

[Andorinha]

After running through the Merry's Sword topic -- Stormrider, in an ancillary note, brought up the old question regarding Hobbit Origins, especially whether or not they might be considered an actual part of "Mankind." So, I'd like to return to this topic, after it has languished here since 2015.

Did the hobbits consider themselves Men? Did Men regard the hobbits as part of the assembly of Men?

Did the three "tribes" of the hobbits have some sort of connection with the Three Peoples: Fallowhides and Elves, Harfoots and Men, Stoors and Dwarves?*

Of course, I'll bet there are many other points to consider as well, in an attempt to define the "race" of the hobbits...

*It is interesting to note, that in the prologue of FotR, JRRT associates the "beardless" Harfoots with the Dwarves, while the Stoors, who do have beards were said to be " less shy of Men." (FotR, Prologue, p. 3)

[Stormrider]

I wonder why Tolkien defined them as such in his prologue. There must be more to the different Hobbit breeds than just their beards or lack of. Perhaps harfoots were stockier and stronger, stoors a bit taller, fallowhides more agile and nimble?

[Stormrider]

I found this link on Tolkien Gateway: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hobbits
There is much more in this link but I thought we could start here, since these are the first two topics we singled out!

The Stoors grew facial hair and had an affinity for water, boats and swimming and wore boots; the Fallohides were fair, tall and slim, an adventurous people, friendlier and more open to outsiders. Finally, the Harfoots were the most numerous and instituted the living in burrows. In later days the Harfoot traits became the "norm".

FURTHER DOWN THE PAGE.

Hobbits were considered Men. Nearly all scholars agree that Men were closely related to Hobbits, far more closely than Men were to either Elves or Dwarves. It was thus commonly assumed that Hobbits were among the Younger Children of Ilúvatar and were the result of the same act of creation as Men. This would imply that Hobbits had the Gift of Men to pass entirely beyond Arda.

It is supposed that Hobbits branched out from Men as a race in the Elder Days, but they don't appear at all in the chronicles of the Elves.[6] Their exact origin is unknown but in their early days they could have been primitive and "savage".[2] Apparently they survived in Middle-earth for millennia far from importance and the knowledge of stronger races; they come into the records not earlier than the early Third Age where they were living in the Vales of Anduin in Wilderland, between Mirkwood and the Misty Mountains. They have lost the genealogical details of how they are related to the rest of mankind. While they stayed there, the Northmen knew them. Their descendants, the Rohirrim, had that memory of the holbytlan and they remained an object of lore until they contacted them during the War of the Ring. Many old words and names in "Hobbitish" are cognates of words in Rohirric, so much so that even someone without linguistic training could make out the relation (Meriadoc Brandybuck would later write an entire book devoted to the relationship, Old Words and Names in the Shire).

References:
[6] Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, "Prologue", "Concerning Hobbits"
[2] J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Peoples of Middle-earth, "X. Of Dwarves and Men", "The Atani and their Languages"

[Andorinha]

1. Stoors -- I would have linked the Stoors with the Dwarves here, JRRT got it wrong and I shall certainly tell him this, next time we meet.

2. Despite all the so-called experts trying to jam the poor Hobbits into the "race" of Men, we must be scientific here. To belong to a given species, you must demonstrate that individuals from the two test-groups can successfully interbreed and produce offspring who can in their turn produce viable offspring. Men and Elves meet these criteria, with several documented and offspring-productive unions. Of Elves and Dwarves there are no such unions documented, nor Men and Dwarves (though apparently by Saruman's manipulations, Men and Goblins could successfully interbreed). Likewise there are no recorded, successful unions between Hobbits and Dwarves, or Hobbits and Elves, or Hobbits and Men. QED: Hobbits and Men are different species no matter their ancient-most origins.

3. Of importance in this effort is our attempt to view this matter emically. From their own standpoints did the Hobbits consider themselves Men? Close to Men perhaps, just as Chimpanzees are "close" to us Men today, but not actually Men...

Merry and Pippin make this clear when the Ent Treebeard tries to classify the Hobbits, they suggest making up a totally new class for themselves: "'Why not make up a new line? said Pippin. 'Half-grown hobbits, the hole-dwellers. Put us in amongst the four [Ents, Dwarves, Elves, Men], next to Man (the Big People) and you've got it.'" (The Two Towers, "Treebeard," pp 453-54, my emphasis)

Here Pippin demands there now be FIVE separate "Peoples," and while the Hobbits should be placed neaest to the Men, yet they are still a separate People.

[Stormrider]

I did not think about interbreeding! How would we be able to "prove" that? Between Men and Hobbits, that is? goblins and Elves and/or goblins and Men were interbred by Sauron and Saruman. It has to do with the same even number or chromosomes in order to breed successfully. I just happened to read about that recently but that was regarding animal intrbreeding ... by a horse and donkey make a mule but the mule cannot breed with any other horse like critter (odd chromosome count).

I would think that the Orcs were odd chromosome counts so it is odd that they could have been bred with Men or Elves. But they came out odd count so I assume they cannot breed together with themselves and why Saruman had to create them in his factory. So if Men and Elves interbred to create Numenorians, they must have had the same chromosome count (or at least both were even). Aragorn and Arwen were able to have children after all.

[Stormrider]

Treebeard's List: This is from the LOTRO Wiki for the Anniversary Scavenger hunt so I don't remember if Treebeard listed all these animals! But if I remember correctly, his list was very long, unless it was just that he didn't speak hastily!

'Eldest of all, the elf-children. That one is rather easy! Plenty of Elves not far from here in Laurelindórenan, the Golden Wood.

'Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses. Hrum hmm. Somewhere dark and deep you will find the dwarves. Perhaps there are still some in Moria.

'Ent the earthborn, old as mountains. Ah, well you have already found me, clever >race<. Hmm

'Man the mortal, master of horses. Hmm, the Men that call themselves the Horsemasters live in the land of Rohan. And who is master of the Horsemasters? Hm hmmm.

'Beaver the builder. They build themselves homes on the water, but it is always rivers and streams, hmm? Running water?

'Buck the leaper. Hmm, I have heard stories of the fiesty bucks near Imladris. Always in such a hurry! Hoom!

'Bear bee-hunter. Ahh, perhaps in the field near Iarwain Ben-adar's dwelling? But be cautious of the evil-hearted one. Hm.

'Boar the fighter. Full of pride and wroth, these creatures. Hmm, perhaps near the Greenway?

'Hound is hungry. Hounds are usually with their masters. Men, hmm! Try where manymen gather together to eat.

'Hare is fearful. Fearful of their hunters! But, I hear they are very fond of flowers. Hrum! Yellow flowers, yes. Hm hmm.

'Eagle in Eyrie. Hoom! But you would need wings to reach the Eyrie! Perhaps you can catch a glimpse of one in the Misty Mountains.

'Ox in a pasture. Hmm, the Men knows as Dunlendings have great herds of oxen.

'Hart horn-crownéd. Hoo! The silvan Elves have told me of Elks with grand racks of antlers within Eryn Galen.

'Hawk is swiftest. I hear many birds now dwell within the ruins of Eregion. Hoom. It pains me to think of that place.

'Swan the whitest. Hmm hroom. I believe swans can be found in the marshes of the Anduin. Hmm, but was there black swans or white swans?

'Serpent coldest. I have heard that serpents must warm themselves on sun-baked stones.. Hm. Perhaps on just the edge of a very cold place.

'The Hobbit children, the laughing folk, the little people. Ah, they have told me themselves that they dwell in the land called the Shire!

[fanuidhol]

Sorry, a migraine but I can't let this topic go without my input. forgive any garbled sentences. I'll fix them later.

Can a Great Dane breed with a Chihuahua?
Technically yes. They have the same number of chromosomes. In practice, far more problematic. The Chihuahua female would die. The Chihuahua male would have trouble reaching in the normal manner. (However, in my childhood neighborhood a dachshund mix male was trying with a female St. Bernard. She might have been helping him by lying down. Well, either that or she was tired...)
But, we know they are both dogs...scientifically. They have similar physical and behavioral traits despite the size difference.

Just because Hobbits want to be classified as a separate species, doesn't mean there is any scientific basis for that. Look at physical and behavioral characteristics. Is there any scientific evidence that would preclude these two from being the same species?
For comparison here is an article on the differences between donkeys and horses Donkey not a Horse

Other than size, the only physical difference that I can think of is feet. Lets talk about hairy feet first, rather than shape and size and whatnot. I just read an intriguing article that suggests that hair is not turned off nor on by genes, but by "Writ protein", a messenger, that signals on or off for growth of hair. This link is from a .com url. I'm not looking further at the moment. Without a more credible source, just take this with a grain of salt. Hair

And OMG - I never knew nor thought about foot shape before. Turns out I have Greek Feet. Feet
Anyway, as we know from going to the shoe store, size can vary greatly.

Most genetic mutations are not advantageous. Assuming that Hobbit evolved from Men and not the other way around, what advantages would smaller overall size and larger hairy feet provide Hobbits? Smaller size would allow Hobbits to hide more easily. Larger feet might? help distribute their weight with less pressure per square inch to prevent snapping of twigs underneath so they walk more quietly, perhaps. Hairy to keep their feet warm?
Then again, sexual attractiveness might have played a part in the selection of pleasing traits and not have anything to do with natural selection.

Orcs are "ruined" Elves (or men). Whether or not genotypes or phenotypes changed does not matter. The number of chromosomes did not have to change for the differences in appearance. Half Orcs are more interesting to consider. Men and Orcs could produce viable offspring, however mating this f1 hybrid generation to each other would only produce the desired Half Orc 50% of the time while producing an Orc or human about 25% of the time each. Far more efficient to only produce f1s. I'll draw a Punnett Square to illustrate what I mean, but in a bit.

[fanuidhol]