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Post by Stormrider on Apr 26, 2021 20:45:44 GMT -6
Holy cow! You wrote all that with a migraine? I would be in bed in the dark with earplugs in, cringing from the light and sounds!
That's a fantastic link on donkeys and mules. Much more detailed than what I happened to stumble upon.
Your foot & hair links were interesting. I have Greek feet, too. Just a tiny genetic change and we could have hair on our hands and/or feet! I don't think hair on my feet would keep them warm enough in cold whether. And stuffing hairy feet into socks and shoes would be a hassle. I always pictured Hobbit feet much hairier than in PJs movies. And in our LOTRO game, their feet don't look very hairy at all!
Yes, I forgot the Elves and Men were "corrupted" and not actually bred as a race. Breeding orcs and men (F2 on Punnet chart) together getting the results of 2 half orcs, 1 full orc, and 1 full man bothers me. How would you like to be brought up as a man by an orc mom or dad? Aaarrrggg! I think you'd be kind of orcish like those evil men from the south in The Prancing Pony.
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Post by fanuidhol on Apr 26, 2021 21:44:50 GMT -6
Sorry did not explain the charts well. The top of the chart is one of the parents. The side is the other parent. The parents in the first chart (f1) are MM - Man (human) and OO - Orc. They produce only MO - Half Orcs. The parents in the second chart (f2) are both MO - Half Orc. They produce 50% MO - Half Orcs
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 26, 2021 23:02:40 GMT -6
Some potentially heretical examples of "interracial" hobbit unions, somewhat (but only somewhat) tongue-in-cheek:
1. "Hobbits have no beards." (The Hobbit "An unexpected Party," p. 4) So, sometime after writing The Hobbit, JRRT suddenly, in Lord of the Rings, comes up with "bearded" Stoors. Hmmm, did Thorin and company introduce "bearded-genes" to the hobbit commonwealth?
2. "It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife." (Ibid)
So, to avoid Fan's sensible conclusion that St Bernards and Daschunds attempting to consummate their loves would be a difficult proposition, at the least -- perhaps an exceptionally largish hobbit, say the Bullroarer Took, might happen to save a rather small Elf Maiden from the Gobblins, and she might be very thankful, and well, er, maybe...
Oooo -- sorry to hear about the migraine -- never had one, never want one -- get better soon!
OK, Fan, need a chart for Took - Fairy genetics, showing how Bilbo and Frodo inherit the Elvish gene for "adveturism."
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 27, 2021 6:43:39 GMT -6
Hmmm, Fairies aren't in Treebeard's list though. Unless it is a loose term by the Hobbits for an Elf. If not, it was probably an old Hobbit wive's (non Took family) tale just to try and explain the wanderlust of some Hobbits in the Took family.
I am looking at the family lineage tables and I see Frodo, Pippin, and Merry are from the Took line, decending from The Old Took. Ok, now I see Bilbo is also from the Old Took line thru his mother, Belladonna Took.
Very odd that JRRT first stated no beards than added beards to the Stoors later. Could have a Dwarf or Human way back in the lineage. Most likely a human from the Rohirrim or a Wild man? Didn't someone reference earlier in this thread (or did I read it, maybe one of my links) that Hobbits were close with the Rohirrim? Yes, my April 24th, post referencing Tolkien's Gateway. The Rohirrim have memories of the holbytla so there could have been some nooky nooky involved somewhere down the line.
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Post by fanuidhol on Apr 27, 2021 7:01:19 GMT -6
*Sigh* Andy, you missed the point. Great Danes, St. Bernards, Dachshund mixes, and Chihuahuas are all dogs, regardless if "things" don't line up easily.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 27, 2021 7:14:13 GMT -6
Yep, they are all dogs but different sizes could be problematic especially if it was a small sized mom dog, the pups would be too large, unless a vet helped with a C-section.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 27, 2021 7:59:50 GMT -6
LOL -- OK, Stormy/ Fan, but I still feel hobbits should be allowed to define their own status. "Tolkien presented hobbits as relatives of the human race, or a 'variety' or separate 'branch' of humanity. In Tolkien's fictional world, hobbits and other races are aware of the similarities between humans and hobbits (hence the colloquial terms for each other of 'Big People' and 'Little People'); nevertheless, the hobbits consider themselves a separate people." "The Fellowship of the Ring, Prologue. 'It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement, hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. [...] But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.' " cf en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit#CITEREFCarpenter1981 emphasis mine. So, while 'dogs are all dogs,' according to Fan -- but, are foxes dogs? or dingoes? -- all bipedal, language-using creatures in ME, may not be Men... Especially if we try to see the use of mythological and legendary "wee-folk," or "little people," as the original base for hobbits, they would only secondarily, in JRRT's works, be gradually "humanized?"
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 27, 2021 8:30:29 GMT -6
Andy said: "while 'dogs are all dogs,' according to Fan -- but, are foxes dogs? or dingoes?" Twizzle Pup pup's breed, Australian Cattle Dog, Heeler, comes from dingo lineage. Thomas Hall first bred them. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Cattle_DogOk, the Hobbits consider themselves separate (like Dingoes and Dogs) but they are very closely aligned with humans. Possibly can breed together, although a Hobbit male and human mom would be a safer bet. Like Tyrion Lannister and his lady.
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Post by fanuidhol on Apr 27, 2021 10:04:35 GMT -6
I was just talking to someone yesterday about their Wolf hybrid that is the offspring of a German Shepherd/Wolf and a Husky/Wolf. Dogs have 78 chromosomes in 39 pairs. Dingoes, coyotes, and Wolves have 78 chromosomes. These animals may hybridize to produce fertile offspring. However there is size and behavior to consider. The evolutionary tree split 3-4 million years ago. Foxes diverged much earlier and have some fewer chromosomes.
I thought this thread was about the scientific question of where Hobbits belong in the Genetic/Evolutionary Tree.
I've decided that I am a Zebra.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 27, 2021 13:56:33 GMT -6
LOL! Yes, we have diverted pretty far off the subject! Yes, indeed! However, biology and chromosomes should count for something.
No telling chromosome counts for men or hobbits. JRRT didn't get in to that! But I still think Hobbits are a type of Human.
I'd like to be a giraffe.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 27, 2021 22:27:04 GMT -6
Humph -- foxes are not dogs, and, as Bilbo put it: "If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples." (FotR, "Many Meetings,") Hmmm, I like sunning myself in a patch of clean sand, I'll go with being a lizard...
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 28, 2021 10:01:01 GMT -6
Well, yes, definite differences, such as height and furry feet!
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Apr 29, 2021 19:28:37 GMT -6
2. "It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife." (Ibid) So, to avoid Fan's sensible conclusion that St Bernards and Daschunds attempting to consummate their loves would be a difficult proposition, at the least -- perhaps an exceptionally largish hobbit, say the Bullroarer Took, might happen to save a rather small Elf Maiden from the Gobblins, and she might be very thankful, and well, er, maybe... Fairies (in Middle-earth) are generally assumed to be either legendary or a name used by mortals for some of the Maiar. They were used in Tolkien's early writings like The Book of Lost Tales but mostly abandoned later except for that one reference in The Hobbit. I like to imagine that this is the hobbitish name for beings like Goldberry or other mysterious nature spirits of Arda. Whether one of the Tooks actually had a relationship with a Maia, well...who can say? tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Fairiestolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sprites
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 30, 2021 3:26:33 GMT -6
Alas, Freddy -- Faries and Elves, another bitterly contested point of Middle-earth lore. I think I largely agree with you, if I'm reading you correctly here, that JRRT's Elves are very different from the earlier conceptions he had of the "Good Folk," the Fairies. However, parts of The Hobbit seem to have missed out on Tolkien's several "re-writes" as he tried to coordinate the original Hobbit with the later Lord of the Rings. " Apparently, fairies was a Hobbit name for Elves. Some lived in the land of the Faerie.'It was rumored that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. Belladonna Took, one of three remarkable daughters of the Old Took, was said to have descended from the fairies. There was something not hobbit-like about the Tooks.' "In the poem Errantry, a hobbit rhyme made by Bilbo based loosely on the the legends of Eärendil, there is reference to the archipelagos where yellow marigolds grow, and where countless silver fountains are, and mountains are of fairy-gold." "Beren and Luthien (2017) reintroduces the usage of fairy as synonymous term to 'elves'/'elfin'." ( lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Fairies) my emphasis Tolkien, to make his mythology fully consistent, should have edited-out both uses of the earlier term of Fairy/ Fairies -- but, he did not... An oversight? At any rate, this leaves us with the notion that to the hobbits of Bilbo's generation, the Elves remained identified as Fairies... see also enchantedlivingmagazine.com/professor-tolkien-and-the-faries/Hmmm, poor Olde Goldberry -- River Daughter (whatever that means) -- I think both she and Bombadil remained largely enigmatic even to Tolkien himself. "A sort of genii-loci" as well as "nature spirits" -- I think he called them in several of his letters, never really assigned a class, not Elves, Maiar/ Valar, nor even a manifestation of Eru-Iluvatar... But, at least for Tom Bombadil -- he may have been no taller than a dwarf? Goldberry was described as Elf-maiden looking, but never directly classed as an Elf, maybe too tall for even the Bullroarer?
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 30, 2021 6:41:09 GMT -6
I do remember reading and discussing Tolkien's dislike for the idea of small fairies and ultimately Elves. I am sure we have that somewhere else on our forum!
So, if Belladonna Took was descended from an Elf, it is very possible the Took line could be classified as part Elf. But would that make them like the Man/Elf/Numenorian? It seems some of the Tooks had longer lives (The Old Took & Bilbo, for example).
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