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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 20, 2018 17:58:17 GMT -6
I'm once again working my way through one of the HOME books. This time it's Vol. 4: The Shaping of Middle-earth. I own the first five volumes of HOME, which have most of the material I'm interested in. My understanding is that with Vol. 6, the series turns into the History of The Lord of the Rings. I'd rather read the unique material that doesn't exist elsewhere instead of early drafts of a story I know. Which brings us to The Shaping of Middle-earth. The most fascinating part of this book (for me) is The Ambarkanta, the Shape of the World. This shows us Tolkien's conception of his whole universe, not just the Middle-earth continent. And it has maps! Here we learn about the Land of the Sun in the Uttermost East, where the Elves believe the sun originates from every morning. This land has a mountain range, the Walls of the Sun, which parallel the Mountains of Valinor in the West. Their highest peak is Kalormë, presumably the parallel of Taniquetil (where the Valar live). On the map, we see the shape of the Hither Lands (the primary land masses of Arda). This makes it quite clear that Tolkien intended Middle-earth to be an early form of Eurasia and that Harad in the south was intended to be Africa. There is also a mysterious continent called the Dark Land in the southeast, of which little is known. I assume this eventually becomes Australia. This material reinforces the idea that Arda is our Earth in the distant legendary past. The Ambarkanta also discusses the nature of Arda and its surroundings. Ambar is the earth. Vista is the breathable air, which also contains Fanyamar (Cloudhome) and Aiwenorë (Bird-land. Every time I see this name, I hear jazz music in my head ). Above this is Ilmen, the heavens, which has thinner air. Only the sun and moon can travel here. Further beyond is Vaiya, the Outer Sea, which is basically outer space. When Arda was flat, the closest portion of Vaiya that bordered the flat earth was ocean-like but the further out you got, the thinner it became until it was airless emptiness. If you somehow got past this, you then come to Kuma, the Void. This is what exists beyond the walls of the universe, the timeless nothingness to which Morgoth was banished. I found all of this to be extremely cool! Nowhere else is there such a thorough description of Tolkien's universe. While I realize that the HOME represents early writings that Tolkien later revised or rejected, I'd like to think this is all still canon. There's nothing in the other books that contradicts it. The other land masses beyond Middle-earth are not even discussed. I see no reason that this can't be considered the geography and physics of Arda. The rest of this book seems to be early drafts of The Silmarillion. I'm less enthused with this, since I already know the stories. So far, I've worked my way through the Sketch of the Mythology (a nice concise summary of the First Age). Now I'm reading The Quenta. It basically reads like The Silmarillion but with some of the names being different. Good writing but not as exciting and new for me. Anyone else have thoughts on this book or the maps? What do you think happened to the Land of the Sun when Arda was made round? Did it sink into the sea? Merge with eastern Middle-earth? Is the Dark Land where Ungoliant fled when she escaped into the south? Is she the source of its darkness or is it simply too far from the Land of the Sun to be properly lit? Are Ungoliant's spawn the reason why much of the wildlife in Australia seems designed to kill you?
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 21, 2018 10:38:01 GMT -6
This is a great topic, Freddy! I'll get out the appropriate HoME volumes.
Offhand, I do remember that JRRT was interested in real life geology, and think that he followed the Alfred Wegner controversies from 1912 to 1922 wherein Continental Drift was first introduced (Isle of Balar being dragged across the sea?). By 1950 this "theory" was widely, but not entirely, accepted. I think Tolkien's interest in CD can be found in The Letters, edited by Carpenter. I remember one of JRRT's maps has a South America looking blade of land (upside down!) off in far east, with, I suppose, the assumption that it would at some later date (Fourth Age) "drift" into its present position? I'll look for an Australian type mass, can't recall such offhand… Ungoliant and the Australian Funnel-web spiders, oooo, that would be interesting!
Nice to see you back online -- get totally well soon!
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 21, 2018 10:47:29 GMT -6
muse.jhu.edu/article/482207/summary"'O Valar, ye know not all wonders, and many secret things are there beneath the Earth's dark keel' (Lost Tales I 214). So Ulmo explained the Earth's structure to the Valar. It is curious that they, having materially participated in the making of the world, should be uncertain of its form, but Tolkien was himself uncertain how to depict Arda, at this stage (c.1919) and for decades afterwards." "The geology Tolkien knew was not static in any way; new discoveries apparently influenced him as he revised his legendarium. The most far-reaching development in geological theory in the twentieth century, though it took most of Tolkien's scholarly lifetime to establish itself, was continental drift and Tolkien's writing displays an awareness of and receptivity to it. Both Robert C. Reynolds and William Sarjeant have offered explanations of the topography of Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age in terms of plate tectonics, but both articles are primarily descriptive and do not address the question of Tolkien's knowledge of geology, particularly the evidence for continental drift developing across the drafts of his legendarium. "Indications of a growing concern with geological accuracy and a familiarity with continental drift emerge side by side in Tolkien's writings as they developed. Though Tolkien's geology would always have a strong catastrophist element, in the 1930s Tolkien began to incorporate into it a uniformitarian underpinning of geologic time as well as a dynamic theory of geological change."
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 24, 2018 6:03:38 GMT -6
This is an interesting discussion. I will keep an eye on it. All my books are boxed up in storage so I can't get to them right now, but will work on it so I can read what you are talking about.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 28, 2018 14:59:39 GMT -6
This is a great topic, Freddy! I'll get out the appropriate HoME volumes. Offhand, I do remember that JRRT was interested in real life geology, and think that he followed the Alfred Wegner controversies from 1912 to 1922 wherein Continental Drift was first introduced (Isle of Balar being dragged across the sea?). By 1950 this "theory" was widely, but not entirely, accepted. I think Tolkien's interest in CD can be found in The Letters, edited by Carpenter. I remember one of JRRT's maps has a South America looking blade of land (upside down!) off in far east, with, I suppose, the assumption that it would at some later date (Fourth Age) "drift" into its present position? I'll look for an Australian type mass, can't recall such offhand… Ungoliant and the Australian Funnel-web spiders, oooo, that would be interesting! The land mass you're talking about is probably the Dark Land. I just assumed it was the future Australia because of its placement on the map. But you're right, it doesn't really look like Australia. Perhaps part of the Dark Land sinks into the sea during the Numenor cataclysm and it takes on a more Australia-like form. I suppose this land could have drifted at some point to become South America but that seems unlikely to me. Why would only that continent drift when Middle-earth and Harad stay where they are and retain the shape of the later Eurasia and Africa? I pulled out my Atlas of Middle-earth and looked at some of the maps in that. According to this book, in the Third Age, "new lands" appeared in the west after the cataclysm. I assume those new lands would be the future North and South America. Presumably these continents arose out of the sea when Arda was changed. Another possibility is raised in The Shaping of Middle-earth (and, I hear, in other HoME books). Christoper Tolkien mentions several documents where his father makes notes about changing the mythology so that Arda was always round. In this version, Valinor would not be the Uttermost West, it would be in the center of the ocean and the new lands are only discovered after Valinor is removed from the Circles of the World. The stories in The Silmarillion about flat Arda would simply be legends. Just because early Elves and Men believed that the world was flat and that the sun and moon were seeds of the Two Trees wouldn't necessarily mean that this was true. Those stories would be recast as creation myths written by the people of Middle-earth. Like so many of Tolkien's stories though, this didn't make it into print in his lifetime so we have no way of knowing if it would have been canon in his final rewrite. I found this article on the Tolkien Gateway about the round Arda. Interesting stuff: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion*** I've read some more of The Shaping of Middle-earth and, as I feared, it's mostly early drafts and a timeline of the First Age. Like I said earlier, it's good writing but not as interesting to me. Between the Sketch of the Mythology, the Quenta Noldrinwa, and now the Annals of Beleriand, this book basically has the same story three times. Nothing in this volume has topped the Ambarkanta for me.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 29, 2018 10:04:19 GMT -6
RE Freddy's: "I just assumed it was the future Australia because of its placement on the map. But you're right, it doesn't really look like Australia." Yeah, the problem with Tolkien land-forms is that originally they were simply a matter of "fantasy geology," with little or no real reference to "reality." As Tolkien revised his corpus of writings he became ever more concerned with tying Middle Earth to our own, real world. Somewhere, somewhen, somehow he started learning about real earth geology, even picking up on the basic notions of Continental Drift. To better conform with real earth history, this meant the early abandonment of the "flat-earth," original conception. He never quite finished this work of "re-shaping" Middle-earth, and also had to contend with the fact that scientific geology was stumbling through its own "re-shaping" process as a grudging and only gradually accepted consensus was hammered out concerning plate tectonics. In his partial understanding of real earth shaping processes, Tolkien's maps, understandably, are somewhat chaotic and still partly "fanciful" in their design. Hence, a "South America" looking blade could be rotated 180 degrees and then moved into its proper real-earth position, or it could, alternatively be squashed into a more oval shape and then moved south to become our Australia. I found the following critique of Tolkien's late version Middle Earth to be interesting in showing how much further JRRT still had to go before his land forms would conform with our reality. Of course the critique is somewhat unfair in that during Tolkien's active writing period, even real earth geologist were still arguing over how and where mountains could form, and continental masses could be shaped and could travel... www.tor.com/2017/08/01/tolkiens-map-and-the-messed-up-mountains-of-middle-earth/
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 29, 2018 11:03:32 GMT -6
Alex Acks doesn't like the right angles on the mountains! So if we lay out our real Earth formations of Europe, what do their mountain ranges look like? The Shire as France/Spain, Breeland as United Kingdom/Germany, Rivendell as Poland, Rohan as Switzerland/Austria and a mishmosh of small countries, Gondor as Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria, & Greece, Mordor as Romania & Ukrania? The mountain ranges don't line up at all like our own earth.
If Middle-Earth is an early land formation of our earth, I always thought that the land of Harad and others South of Gondor and Mordor would have been part Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, eventually going into Africa.
I really prefer to think of Middle-Earth as being in another land on another earth-like planet in another galaxy (any time past, present, or future) ... kind of like Star Wars.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 30, 2018 18:48:40 GMT -6
RE Stormy: "I really prefer to think of Middle-Earth as being in another land on another earth-like planet in another galaxy (any time past, present, or future) ... kind of like Star Wars."
That would certainly have made things easier for JRRT! It's fun to draw your own maps, adds some sort of solidity to a story, but, apparently very difficult to get it realistically done unless you know a good deal of geography/ geology!
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Feb 5, 2018 23:13:05 GMT -6
A friend of mine posted that article on Facebook a while back. I had the same argument as many of the people in the comment thread - that Middle-earth's geography was shaped by cosmic beings, not just by geology. The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth to impede Orome's pursuit of him and his creatures. The landscape of Middle-earth was altered by the War of Wrath and the battles of Morgoth against the Maiar. The mountains surrounding Mordor were likely shaped by Sauron to fence in his realm and create a defense against invaders. Long story short, the geology may not add up in real world terms but we're dealing with a fantasy world with magic and angelic demi-gods. I'm inclined to give Tolkien some slack.
As for thinking of Middle-earth as our world or an earth-like planet, I prefer to think of it as an ancient version of our world, as Tolkien did. For me, it strengthens the connection to the folklore traditions of "later" ages. I like the idea that these lands became the world we know, that surviving Elves, Orcs, and Trolls inspired the legends of ancient civilizations, that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were dimly remembered in the fairy tale of the Seven Dwarfs, that the stories were found and "translated" by Tolkien from the original Westron, etc. Granted, we know it's all fiction and as stated above the geology and continental drift doesn't match up. But it's fun to imagine it as an alternate timeline of our world.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 6, 2018 6:21:05 GMT -6
I like how Freddie explains the folklore and ancient legends and traditions coming down through the ages and being dimly remembered. But I have trouble being Catholic with The Bible creation of Earth vs the Valar creating and shaping Arda. I know Tolkien was deeply religious (Catholic if I remember crrectly) so his creation and shaping of Arda rather baffled me as the prelude to our Earth as we know it today. After all, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Trolls really are fantasy and not a dimly remembered fantasy! But it would have been really cool if they had been true and faded and diminished to only tales.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 6, 2018 7:42:14 GMT -6
Yeah, I never quite know what to expect from JRRT, sometimes he is giving us fantasy, sometimes he tries to make his ancient work conform to our real one...
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Feb 11, 2018 15:46:12 GMT -6
I like how Freddie explains the folklore and ancient legends and traditions coming down through the ages and being dimly remembered. But I have trouble being Catholic with The Bible creation of Earth vs the Valar creating and shaping Arda. I know Tolkien was deeply religious (Catholic if I remember crrectly) so his creation and shaping of Arda rather baffled me as the prelude to our Earth as we know it today. After all, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Trolls really are fantasy and not a dimly remembered fantasy! But it would have been really cool if they had been true and faded and diminished to only tales. I'm not religious so my knowledge of the Bible is pretty spotty. But my understanding is that Tolkien went out of his way to NOT contradict his Catholic beliefs in the creation story of Arda. Wasn't that why he changed the Valar from the Gods of The Book of Lost Tales to simply being the angelic "Powers" subject to Iluvatar? Why Morgoth has the same role as Lucifer in the Middle-earth cosmology? Why Men in The Silmarillion talk about a "great darkness" in their past (the Fall of Man)? At the end of the day, it's all fantasy, yes. But Tolkien seemed to be playing an elaborate game of making his "sub-creation" of Arda consistent with what he believed about the actual world. Speculating on what role these mythical beings might have had in the universe and how a forgotten age of legends could have existed many centuries before the Biblical era or recorded history.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 11, 2018 16:36:07 GMT -6
The old Testament Genesis 1:1-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 condensed a lot by me: 1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (and the Spirit of God hovered over the waters), God said "Let there by light." and there was light (and darkness so He separated them into day and night). 2. God said, Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." This expanse was the sky. 3. God said " Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place and let dry ground appear." Land and seas.Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation, seed bearing plants and trees that bear fruit with seed in it. 4. And God said, "Let there be lights in the sky to separate night and day and as signs to mark seasons and days and years." God made two great lights--the greater to govern the day and the lesser to govern the night and He made stars. 5. God said "Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth." 6. And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds." Livestock, wild animals, slithery creatures, etc.Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let the rule over the fish, the birds, the livestock, and creatures that move on the ground over all the earth." And of course, Man and Woman and told them to be fruitful and increase in number. 7. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing, so on the seventh day, he rested frm all his work and blessed the seventh day and made it holy.
The New Testament Gospel of John 1:1-5 it says: The Word is Jesus Christ who is God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity and through him all things were made.
So, to me, and other Catholics, God created everything by the Second Person of the Holy Trinity --Jesus Christ, the Son. I did not go into depth above, but if you read the entire Genesis passages, there is no mention of angels helping God out. So that is where I have the problem with comparing the Valar to the Angels in the Bible and that confuses me with Tolkien trying to merge Earth and Middle Earth. So I just keep believing it is another Earth-like world, possibly in another solar system, either past, present, or future.
But I could see that the Valar could have been the Angels who would be Iluvatar/Gods subjects. They could have been around during all of this creating or not. The Bible Genesis passages do not say when they were created. They aren't even mentioned at this point!
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 11, 2018 18:00:55 GMT -6
Freddie said earlier: "As for thinking of Middle-earth as our world or an earth-like planet, I prefer to think of it as an ancient version of our world, as Tolkien did. For me, it strengthens the connection to the folklore traditions of "later" ages. I like the idea that these lands became the world we know, that surviving Elves, Orcs, and Trolls inspired the legends of ancient civilizations, that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were dimly remembered in the fairy tale of the Seven Dwarfs, that the stories were found and "translated" by Tolkien from the original Westron, etc. Granted, we know it's all fiction and as stated above the geology and continental drift doesn't match up. But it's fun to imagine it as an alternate timeline of our world."
I think of Arda as our Earth. In my mind, the landmasses don't need to line up with our current geography. Just as Pangea came apart in reality and "Atlantis" disappeared (in reality?), the landmasses of Middle-earth could have been part of that process. That's how my "suspension of disbelief" holds together.
I try to remember to connect Tolkien with language and philology. His love for words, Finnish, The Kalevala, etc, all fueled his creative impulses. I remember reading something, from Shippey I think, about the name Alfwine which means Elf Friend in Old English. Tolkien ran with it in Lost Tales. "The name exists because, at one time, we were friends with elves." Alfwine is just one example of a word that spark something in Tolkien to use in the fabric of his stories.
I have no problems with the Ainulindale as a creation story written by a religious Catholic. For one thing, the Ainur did not actually create the World. They expanded on the major theme of Illuvatar's music with their own, but, it was Illuvatar who said "Eä! Let these things Be!" Some of them did enter the creation as "guardian angels" to protect against Melkor. And as Freddie said there are some more direct parallels, too.
I think what makes Tolkien's subcreation successful and convincing, is that he took things we already knew in reality, theory*, and folklore and wove them into a rich tapestry.
*as mentioned by Andy earlier.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 12, 2018 6:19:18 GMT -6
It has been a long time since I read The Silmarillion and can't look up everything since my books are in storage. I guess I could review our Sil Discussion! So the Ainur could have done the land mass changes after the creation. That could be possible from my Catholic point of view. There have been many changes after our world was created and be it thru nature or angels/ainur making changes through natural cataclismic events, I could grasp that.
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