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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 14, 2020 12:47:18 GMT -6
Andy, I meant that Thingol, husband of Melian, was not the same person as Elwe, the leader of the third host here. In Sil, they are one and the same. As for the second question, the Cuivienyarna was written within the Quendi and Eldar essay dated between 1959 and 1960.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 14, 2020 14:54:12 GMT -6
Morgoth's Ring The Annals of Aman 1951? (second section) pgs 71-73, 76-77 (Commentary). Again I am going to rely on CT's commentary. Orome's horse has a name, Nahar. Two star makings - Menelmakar (Orion) a sign of Turin Turambar and the Last Battle, and then the Elves awoke during the first shining of The Sickle of the Gods and have ever loved the starlight. Kuivienen (Cuvienen) lies to the NE of Endon - the midpoint of M-e. as a bay of the Sea of Helkar. The waterfalls are the first sound heard by the Elves. The Quendi walked the Earth in wonder, began to make speech, and gave names to everything they saw. They lived by Kuivienen for 35 years of the Valar (335 years*) when Orome heard them singing and found them. At this point there is a note in the margin about Melkor taking captives, turning them into Orkor (orcs), and whispering about an evil huntsman on a horse. It looks like JRRT stopped at this point, because when it picks up again, the marginal note was assimilated into the next part. Those with courage met Orome and knew he was noble. When he went back to Valinor he spoke of the shadows at Kuivienen. Orome went back and dwelt with the Elves. The Valar made war on Melkor while guarding Kuivienen.
Sorry, I need to split Morgoth's Ring into at least one more post.
*Now's our chance to figure out how many generations there could be in this period, if someone would take up the matter. The Laws and Customs of the Eldar is in Morgoth's Ring.
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 14, 2020 16:16:22 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarifications! Hmm, Silmarillion version "published" 1977, can't recall now when that version was originally written. If Cuivienyarna postdates original Sil version of The Awakening, it really does seem weird, was he considering a real alteration to Silmarillion version or just playing games with an old theme?
Scratches head, time for a long nap...
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 14, 2020 16:39:42 GMT -6
Morgoth's Ring Annals of Aman (third section) pgs 81-86, 87-91 (Commentary) Elwe is now also, Thingol. The Quendi were dismayed at the summons and were unwilling. The three ambassadors, Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe, were sent. When they came back Ingwe's, Finwe's and Olwe's people agreed to go. The kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe were unwilling for they lived the furthest away from Kuievienen and did not meet Orome when he came originally. They became the Avari. The Teleri were the lest eager and largest host, so had two lords Elwe and Olwe, his brother. It took 100 years to reach what was said to be the Anduin. The Teleri tarried there and Nano (Dan) lead numerous people southward. They became the Nandor. When the Vanyar and Noldor reached Beleriand, many withdrew into the woods. Even though the Teleri were unwilling they entered Beleriand at the urging of Elwe. He strayed into the woods and found Melian. They stood together for many years. Ulmo's words and music changed the fear of the sea to desire for the Vanyar and Noldor and they went across the sea. The Teleri searched for Elwe but then took Olwe as their king, dwelt along the shore and learned to love the sea. Eventually, many of the Teleri wanted to cross the sea, however kinsfolk of Elwe (Who became Sindar) and some others were persuaded by Osse to remain. The Teleri who attempted to cross, instead changed their minds and Osse chained the island so they remained in sight of Aman.
There's more, however, I have to go cook dinner. Husband usually does, but it's my alfredo. So sorry, a third post is forthcoming.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 14, 2020 19:04:14 GMT -6
Andy, I did another search into JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide, Reader's Guide. This time for the Sil Chapter "Of the Coming of the Elves". In Morgoth's Ring, what I am summarizing now of the Annals and the section of The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Eves is directly what CT used to create the 1977 version of Sil. So, The Cuivienyarna post dates this by 8 or so years. But, you do have to remember late in life, JRRT was attempting to do a major revision of the Silmarillion.
CT used various material from various years to create the Silmarillion we have. We've said this before, if JRRT lived to published it, it might have been vastly different.
But, I am glad you asked the question, since I had not gotten to summarize the Later Q S, and I was thinking that there wasn't anything different from Sil in the Annals. Maybe I don't have to summarize the Later Q S. I will look at the commentary of The Later Q S and post only if there is anything radically different from the published Sil.
One thing that is interesting, from the Annals that was crossed out, was that JRRT considered having Feanor be the very first born of the awakened Elves and that Indis (not Muriel), his mother fell from a great height and was lost.
Morgoth's Ring The Later Quenta Silmarillion Commentary only pgs 166 - 171. It appears Tolkien kept toying with how the Awakened acquired language, going back an forth between them doing themselves or with the aid of Orome. There is no mention of the kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 14, 2020 19:49:01 GMT -6
Silmarillion The chapter "Of the Coming of the Elves" I'm not going to summarize this. We all have it, can read it for ourselves. However, I will point out that Feanor, in "The Flight of the Noldor", after the death of his father and the loss of the Simarils, made a fiery speech urging the Noldor to go back to Cuivienen, their home. Here's the thing, Feanor was not born there. I'm sure I can figure out how many years had passed between the Elves leaving Cuivienen and Feanor's speech. But, I'm not going to. This brings to mind Freddie's point of how many Awakened Elves are left in Middle-earth.
Unfinished Tales 2 mentions. The History of Galadriel and Celeborn pg 239 At one point Celeborn appeared to be a Nandorin who went on the Great Journey from Cuivienen. The other mention is in passing. War of the Jewels has a number of mentions, but they seem to be all in passing other than in The Cuivienyarna
Next up, tomorrow - The Cuivienyarna and what other authors have to say about it.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 15, 2020 6:53:36 GMT -6
I did a search through HoMe and there were no other entries for our Cuivienyarna leaders.
Working through my other books again, expanding my search terms to include things such as "Great Journey", "starlight", and "Ingwe" (just because he's the least likely to have many entries).
Fellowship of the Ring, In the House of Tom Bombadil, about 2/3 through the chapter during the tales that Tom Bombadil was telling the Hobbits: "...and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake." (bold mine) I realize quite well that male gender words can be used sometimes to include the female gender, also. And before doing this little study, I would have passed over this as one of those times. But, not now. The possibility is there. What if Tolkien came to mean only the sires?
I am in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, another book by Hammond and Scull. pg 138 They don't give an opinion, just include the the first version of the text, found in Return of the Shadow, pg 121 'Tom went singing back before the Sun and before the Moon, out into the old starlight.'
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 15, 2020 14:56:17 GMT -6
Next, I am going to look at the Cuivienyarna itself War of the Jewels, pgs 420-424. The tale was typed with a carbon copy. At some point, JRRT added the note that it was 'a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.' He called it "a legend found in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar"
I think two arguments can be made: We can take it at face value, JRRT literally wrote it to be exactly what we see - a legend, a fairytale, a child's tale and counting-lore. Or was there a change in JRRT's thinking about the Elven "origin/creation" story? But, then walked it back? This was written during the time he was rethinking a number of things. A case could be made for either, though the second choice could be wishful thinking rather than evidence based.
I've read it several times, trying to make it fit together in my mind with the existing Silmarillion account. Mostly I was trying to reconcile the three fathers with the three ambassadors. Slapped my forehead after reading through the Silmarillion account. My problem really had been Imin, the first of the fathers. He seems to have a strong personality and I made the assumption that he would be a leader that would become an ambassador, volunteering to go. Orome chose the ambassadors and afterwards they were kings. The fathers could have been leaders prior to and while the ambassadors were gone. They could have disappeared into the recesses of the different groups.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 15, 2020 16:50:43 GMT -6
I am of two minds when reading "romantic" portion of The Cuivienyarna. First I chafe against the "stereotypes", and then I get a little misty-eyed with the one true love romantic heart of JRRT that we have seen over and over in his writing and life. Obviously, CT chose not to include even parts of the Cuivienyarna in The Silmarillion. He might have been hung up on the counting lore aspects of it, but I think they could have been woven together to create a more intimate portrait of the Awakening. It would have felt far less distant. What are your thoughts? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(haven't seen one of these separating lines in a long time, right Andy?) I read once that the moral to Little Red Riding Hood was - Invest in good eye care. (I do know what the true moral for little girls was.) So, what's the moral of this fairytale? For Imin - It isn't always good to be first....or last. Any ideas?
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 15, 2020 18:18:32 GMT -6
Somewhat later, Chapter 10 Gilfanon's Tale starts on pg 259 of the Del Ray paperback, with some explanations and commentary. His tale begins on 262 in which he talks about Elves that did not leave the environs of the Waters of Awakening. Here, too, near those waters were deep caverns underneath which was the home of Tu The Wizard. Tu taught these Elves deep things. Who is Gilfanon? Is he one of the awakened Elves? I wonder if Tu was a Maiar similar to Gandalf, Sauruman, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards BEFORE they came to ME on their mission. Was there any reference to what "deep things" he taught the Elves?
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 15, 2020 18:47:02 GMT -6
Gilfanon is a Gnome, "one of the oldest of the fairies" (pg 47) and he tells the tale, but he uses "they" and "them" so he wasn't present. It doesn't say what Tu teaches the Elves.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 15, 2020 18:59:22 GMT -6
I have a hard time thinking of this being a fairy tale. It seems so much more historical and genealogical to me. A fairy tale has more dialog to it and the characters are more involved as real characters. It seems the characters are more like factual statistics in this tale. This this and this happened to or by this this and this Elf or Valar.
That said, I would like it to be more story tale-like with details on how the elves learned to speak either thru Orome or on their own. Actually converse together and speak the words in the tale. And so on for more details on what the Fathers said in picking their group of elves. More details on what they said and did when Morgoth/Melkor grabbed and corrupted some of the elves. And more details and adventures in their travels overseas or not.
So I WOULD have preferred a fairy tale but one more for an adult audience.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 15, 2020 19:08:30 GMT -6
The counting lore. "And so it was that the Quendi ever after reckoned in twelves, and that 144 was for long their highest number..." We measure time in units that are multiples of 12, and in the US we measure using units multiplied/divisible by 12. There are advocates who believe we should go from a base 10 system to a base 12. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuodecimalWas JRRT interested in this? According to the Cuivienyarna there are no words for a number higher than 144. (That would make it simpler language wise, not needing names for higher than that.)
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 16, 2020 14:22:14 GMT -6
Here is a picture of Gson's desk with mine to the right (unseen) at 90 deg to make a corner configuration. This was taken a few days ago.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 16, 2020 14:28:09 GMT -6
Had trouble with the wi-fi not reaching the school room. I kept losing internet, so moved almost everything to the Dining Room. Then, had to move things so we could eat where we normally eat. Hubby shook his head. "I am having fun." I said. "But, I need the modem moved." So, we did.
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