|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 16, 2020 14:36:13 GMT -6
Back to the school room. Fortunately, Gson has been on vacation for 2 weeks. School starts (virtually) tomorrow. So, I need to get this done. If you click on the picture, they will turn right side up. I guess it likes landscape oriented pictures.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 16, 2020 15:40:55 GMT -6
I am going to now include what other authors say about not only the Cuivienyarna, but also, just about the Awakening. First up: JRR Tolkien Encyclopedia Scholarship and Critical Assessment by Michael Drout. (I used to read his blog, now twitter sometimes, ever since I saw him speak 18? years ago.) I do not own this book, unbelievable, but true. The page can be found linkIt starts on page 323, and if you look at the left column you'll see Koivie-neni and Cuivienen. at the end of that article, Cuivienyarna starts. The article surprises me, in that it combines the information found in the Cuivienyarna with The Silmarillion. Please, read the article and hopefully, comment with your thoughts. Drout allowing this to pass, makes me wonder if either he did not read the article, or if he is of my mind, that the Cuivienyarna could have enriched the Silmarillion version. And nowhere did I see counting-lore. Splintered Light by Verlyn Flieger (LOVE her books) About the Awakening pg 72 here Again please, comment. One more post, to come.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 16, 2020 16:44:17 GMT -6
Tolkien and The Great War, by John Garth. (Love this book, a lot) pg 259-260. He is referencing Lost Tales, nothing later. "In leaving their place of origin, the Waters of Awakening, for a better life in the earthly paradise of Elvenhome, the Eldar follow the same progression as the Valar, who left heaven for their first paradise in the midst of the world. This curious repeated pattern, quite distinct from the Judaeo-Christian myth of Eden, seems less surprising in the context of Tolkien's own wandering existence, particularly his childhood idyll, after leaving South Africa, in the English West Midlands - a home 'perhaps more poignant to me because I wasn't born to it'....For the Valar and the Elves, home is a blessing discovered, not inherited." JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide: Readers Guide by Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond (I have several of their works, amazing scholarship.) pg 199 Cuivienyarna The first paragraph is a synopsis heavily focusing on the counting-lore aspects. The second paragraph -- "Although brief and simple, the Cuivienyarna nonetheless contains powerful and mythopoeic images, such as the Elf-fathers' first sights upon waking: The first thing they saw was the stars, for they woke in early twilight before dawn. And the next thing they saw was their destined spouses lying asleep in the green sward beside them. Then they were so enamored of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to 'think of words' to speak and sing in. And being impatient they could not wait but woke their spouses. Thus, the Eldar say, the first thing that each elf-woman saw was her spouse, and her love for him was her first love; and her love and reverence for the wonders of Arda came later. [p.421]" italics, mine. I'm "done" with my research part, although I think the article in Drout's encyclopedia need more unpacking. I am afraid I may not have many more views of that page, however. My books won't be far away.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 16, 2020 16:54:44 GMT -6
I have a hard time thinking of this being a fairy tale. It seems so much more historical and genealogical to me. A fairy tale has more dialog to it and the characters are more involved as real characters. It seems the characters are more like factual statistics in this tale. This this and this happened to or by this this and this Elf or Valar. That said, I would like it to be more story tale-like with details on how the elves learned to speak either thru Orome or on their own. Actually converse together and speak the words in the tale. And so on for more details on what the Fathers said in picking their group of elves. More details on what they said and did when Morgoth/Melkor grabbed and corrupted some of the elves. And more details and adventures in their travels overseas or not. So I WOULD have preferred a fairy tale but one more for an adult audience. They seem to have been around Cuivienen for a very long time. Yes, it would have been nice to get more acquainted with everyone. At least we got Tinfang's story. Even if it wasn't by JRRT. I just did a google search of Cuivienen and fan fiction and there is a number of them. Maybe that would help?
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 16, 2020 20:13:16 GMT -6
Oh! Great idea! Check on other fan fiction stories. Although I loved Tinfang's story! He did such a wonderful job of it. Bittersweet tale in some respects but very nice to hear how he learned and improved in his flute and later fiddle music, not to mention getting his group of musicians together!
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 16, 2020 22:09:53 GMT -6
Morgoth's Ring The Annals of Aman 1951? (second section) pgs 71-73, 76-77 (Commentary). Again I am going to rely on CT's commentary. Orome's horse has a name, Nahar. Two star makings - Menelmakar (Orion) a sign of Turin Turambar and the Last Battle, and then the Elves awoke during the first shining of The Sickle of the Gods and have ever loved the starlight. Kuivienen (Cuvienen) lies to the NE of Endon - the midpoint of M-e. as a bay of the Sea of Helkar. The waterfalls are the first sound heard by the Elves. The Quendi walked the Earth in wonder, began to make speech, and gave names to everything they saw. They lived by Kuivienen for 35 years of the Valar (335 years*) when Orome heard them singing and found them. At this point there is a note in the margin about Melkor taking captives, turning them into Orkor (orcs), and whispering about an evil huntsman on a horse. It looks like JRRT stopped at this point, because when it picks up again, the marginal note was assimilated into the next part. Those with courage met Orome and knew he was noble. When he went back to Valinor he spoke of the shadows at Kuivienen. Orome went back and dwelt with the Elves. The Valar made war on Melkor while guarding Kuivienen. Sorry, I need to split Morgoth's Ring into at least one more post. *Now's our chance to figure out how many generations there could be in this period, if someone would take up the matter. The Laws and Customs of the Eldar is in Morgoth's Ring. I also used this resource tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline in my research for Tale of Tinfang which also gives 335 sun years between awakening and discovery by Orome.
Laws and Customs state the "Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. They had few children, but these were very dear to them". It is apparent from the context e.g. the earlier sentence "at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood" that these are sun years.
Assuming this rule of thumb, there could be up to 6 generations of Elves born in Cuivienen after the first generation of awakened Elves and before discovery by Orome (and assuming the awakened Elves had children not long after awakening).
For pure academic fun, we can attempt some population modelling to set reasonable bounds to the population at Cuivienen, assuming given Elvish immortality and also starting with 144 Elves or 72 couples.
(i) Suppose each couple has 2 children (another couple). Thus each generation is same size as previous generation. Total population = 72*7*2 = 1008 Elves max by the time Orome discovers them.
(ii) Suppose each couple has 3 children. Thus each generation is 1.5x size as previous generation. Total population = 72 + 72*1.5 + 72*1.5^2 + ... This is a geometric sum, formula for sum = 72*(1-1.5^7)/(1-1.5) = 2316.375 couples or 4633 Elves max.
(iii) Suppose each couple has 4 children. Each generation is 2x size of previous generation. Total = 72*(1-2^7)/(1-2) = 9144 couples or 18288 Elves max.
In all 3 scenarios the actual population would have to be (slightly) lesser than the maximum figure quoted, due to the (unfortunate) capture of some Elves by Melkor.
Scenario (iii) seems to be a reasonable upper bound, given the aforementioned remark that Eldar had few children; tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elven_life_cycle#cite_note-NotesB-1 says Elves typically had 4 children or fewer, and Laws and Customs Note 4 says "while the Eldar were still few, and eager to increase their kind, before the weight of years lay on them, there is no record of any number more than seven".
However, I'm not sure how much we should press the applicability of the Laws and Customs to the first generations of Elves at Cuivienen. Perhaps the first generations had more children per couple than would later be normal, and perhaps Laws and Customs better describe Eldar not understood in the sense first used by Orome to refer to all Elves (in the Silmarillion), but in the later sense of those Elves who departed on the Great March (from the index of names and also that diagram on the Elvish subdivisions in the Silmarillion). Given references to Aman, Noldor, practices like weaving, smithing etc, I think Laws and Customs is more applicable to the Eldar understood in the latter sense.
A similar, but more detailed, discussion on Elvish populations is given in middle-earth.xenite.org/elves-by-the-numbers/. He arrives at very similar numbers to those calculated above assuming 4 children per couple in the early generations at Cuivienen.
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 16, 2020 22:11:30 GMT -6
Next, I am going to look at the Cuivienyarna itself War of the Jewels, pgs 420-424. The tale was typed with a carbon copy. At some point, JRRT added the note that it was 'a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.' He called it "a legend found in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar" I think two arguments can be made: We can take it at face value, JRRT literally wrote it to be exactly what we see - a legend, a fairytale, a child's tale and counting-lore. Or was there a change in JRRT's thinking about the Elven "origin/creation" story? But, then walked it back? This was written during the time he was rethinking a number of things. A case could be made for either, though the second choice could be wishful thinking rather than evidence based. I've read it several times, trying to make it fit together in my mind with the existing Silmarillion account. Mostly I was trying to reconcile the three fathers with the three ambassadors. Slapped my forehead after reading through the Silmarillion account. My problem really had been Imin, the first of the fathers. He seems to have a strong personality and I made the assumption that he would be a leader that would become an ambassador, volunteering to go. Orome chose the ambassadors and afterwards they were kings. The fathers could have been leaders prior to and while the ambassadors were gone. They could have disappeared into the recesses of the different groups. In my mind at least, I'd like to believe something factual (in Tolkien's universe) is preserved in the Cuivienyarna.
This could be, as this post says, more wishful thinking, but perhaps some evidence in its favor, is the apparent preservation of the myth among the Amanyar and Sindar (quite a diverse group). There would, presumably, be a reason for this. And it'd seem very possible, I think (and as Fredeghar said) that some of the awakened Elves would still be around even when the Cuivienyarna was supposed to have been fictionally transmitted or written in Tolkien's timeline.
Furthermore, it doesn't seem to be too difficult to harmonize the accounts, at least between the Silmarillion and the Cuivienyarna.
In Tale of Tinfang, I simply said that new leaders arose for the Elf clans i.e. leadership of the clans did eventually pass onto Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe who perhaps were the descendants (children, grandchildren etc) of the Elf fathers.
This post attempts an even more detailed and perhaps accurate harmonization i.e. perhaps it was in virtue of Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe being the first ambassadors, and then having seen the light of the trees (maybe becoming even more regal and dignified as a result?), that they became to be leaders of the clans after they returned to Cuivienen. And after this point Imin, Tata and Enel would just fade into the background as they're not important anymore (nor presumably, are the rest of the awakened Elves).
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 16, 2020 22:11:56 GMT -6
I am of two minds when reading "romantic" portion of The Cuivienyarna. First I chafe against the "stereotypes", and then I get a little misty-eyed with the one true love romantic heart of JRRT that we have seen over and over in his writing and life. Obviously, CT chose not to include even parts of the Cuivienyarna in The Silmarillion. He might have been hung up on the counting lore aspects of it, but I think they could have been woven together to create a more intimate portrait of the Awakening. It would have felt far less distant. What are your thoughts? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(haven't seen one of these separating lines in a long time, right Andy?) I read once that the moral to Little Red Riding Hood was - Invest in good eye care. (I do know what the true moral for little girls was.) So, what's the moral of this fairytale? For Imin - It isn't always good to be first....or last. Any ideas? It seems to be there's at least one moral of the Cuivienyarna fairytale to be discerned, even if it's implicit, and it does seem to concern Imin, because three times it states he withholds his choice of taking companions, believing that he would later find a much larger group to take as his companions. This does not seem to be an incidental and irrelevant detail.
Thus I think the moral would be something along the lines of "strike while the iron is hot", or "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".
Perhaps another, similar but perhaps less relevant moral, would be the one taught in Aesop's fable of the dog and his bone. In John Lydgate's retelling of this fable, he sums up the lesson as "who all coveteth, oft he loseth all".
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 16, 2020 22:12:22 GMT -6
I have a hard time thinking of this being a fairy tale. It seems so much more historical and genealogical to me. A fairy tale has more dialog to it and the characters are more involved as real characters. It seems the characters are more like factual statistics in this tale. This this and this happened to or by this this and this Elf or Valar. That said, I would like it to be more story tale-like with details on how the elves learned to speak either thru Orome or on their own. Actually converse together and speak the words in the tale. And so on for more details on what the Fathers said in picking their group of elves. More details on what they said and did when Morgoth/Melkor grabbed and corrupted some of the elves. And more details and adventures in their travels overseas or not. So I WOULD have preferred a fairy tale but one more for an adult audience. As part of my research for Tale of Tinfang, I wanted to see if there were any more detailed stories/accounts about the first Elves at Cuiviénen. I couldn't find anything by Tolkien apart from the Cuivienyarna.
I did turn to fanfiction for ideas, but (in my opinion) there's wasn't a great deal of that either that I could find (at least set in the time period of the earliest days at Cuiviénen).
Some of the fanfiction there was, was quite well-written in my opinion, but contained what I believed were inaccuracies or errors e.g.
(a) that Elves could talk fluently immediately after they awoke, or
(b) that Ingwe was an awakened Elf (he seems to have a "blood-sister" who is either Indis herself or related to Indis (according to the Debate of the Valar on the Statute of Finwe and Miriel); similarly, Enel is not likely Elwe if Elwe has apparent blood-brothers in Olwe and Elmo), or
(c) that the Elves in Cuiviénen hunted wild beasts for food. If this time period was during the Sleep of Yavanna, I don't think there would have been much fauna about (at least that the Elves could eat, I think).
This is assuming of course, that the Cuivienyarna is to be regarded as factual (within Tolkien's fiction) and isn't merely a "myth/fairytale within a myth".
As a side note, it's an interesting question what they would have eaten during the Years of the Trees. One may only be able to speculate, but perhaps it's produce of the Earth - berries, mushrooms, vegetables etc? And how they would have first known these things were edible (perhaps just hunger combined with created instinct).
Tale of Tinfang was my own humble attempt to contribute to the small body of fanfiction on the earliest days at Cuiviénen whilst following the lore slightly better (in my opinion).
|
|
|
Post by fobria on Aug 16, 2020 22:12:51 GMT -6
The counting lore. "And so it was that the Quendi ever after reckoned in twelves, and that 144 was for long their highest number..." We measure time in units that are multiples of 12, and in the US we measure using units multiplied/divisible by 12. There are advocates who believe we should go from a base 10 system to a base 12. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuodecimalWas JRRT interested in this? According to the Cuivienyarna there are no words for a number higher than 144. (That would make it simpler language wise, not needing names for higher than that.) Regarding the "counting lore" aspect, I think the total of 144 may have also been a convenient sum to use when numbering the relative proportions of the Elf clans during the Great March, or in Middle Earth (and Aman) during the First Age as per p.g. 381 of the War of the Jewels, where it says for example that the Moriquendi outnumbered the Amanyar in the proportion of 82 to 62 (totalling 144).
Perhaps the proportions of the various clans both in Middle Earth and in Aman were more accurately preserved when using 144 as a total sum rather than 100.
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 17, 2020 4:56:40 GMT -6
Fobria, thank you for your posts, and outing yourself. I'll need to postpone most of a reply, due to time, however I can't resist some tangential thoughts. What did the Elves eat? I know of no plant that survives in starlight only, save mushrooms, if they have organic material. But, we know there were "Woods". So, by Yavanna's grace, perhaps, these woods produced fruits and nuts. Small, nocturnal animals could survive on these, which in turn would allow predators to survive. And deer and other animals browse on branches, allowing them to be a food source. And insects....chocolate covered ants, anyone? Thank you for the Michael Martinez article. I have enjoyed his articles in the past, but did not think to seek him out, and I should have. He is an out of the (canon) box thinker. THANK YOU for the math!! And the reasonable number of Elves, present, barring of course, those lost to Melkor. I had a weird thought of other "historical/legendary" journeys come into my head while reading that post. Moses and the Exodus came first. Trail of Tears. Then a few other migrations, forced or otherwise, and the logistics involved of moving that many people.
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 17, 2020 6:46:35 GMT -6
Hi Fobria, aka Tinfang! I'm so glad to have you here at TR to join us in our discussions. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I found this link online when I looked up 144 and Tolkien. I have been busy this week so haven't had a chance to read it in full but thought I would put the link here so everyone can digest it. There are a lot of interesting topics besides just the number 144 in it. Oh! I just realized this is from Michael Martinez!!! And going back over some posts above, the same link fobria posted. middle-earth.xenite.org/elves-by-the-numbers/#:~:text=The%20essay%20stipulates%20that%20there%20were%20originally%20144,awaken%3A%20Imin%20%28one%29%2C%20Tata%20%28two%29%2C%20and%20Enel%20%28three%29.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Aug 17, 2020 8:31:50 GMT -6
Pleased to meet'cher, forbia! Wow lots more material to digest here! My thanks to all of you. Hmmm, numbers, 144 -- how curious that JRRT hit upon this particular figure, I think I can recall the hobbits at Bilbo's party expressing some negativity toward it: "One gross, indeed! Harumph!"
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Aug 17, 2020 9:00:39 GMT -6
I thought there was a reference to Hobbits and the number 144. I thought it might have been some landmark age to reach!
|
|
|
Post by fanuidhol on Aug 17, 2020 10:52:14 GMT -6
|
|