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Post by Stormrider on Nov 11, 2021 20:17:31 GMT -6
Well, no matter what skin tone the Woses have, I somehow thought they were darker. And that being in my mind, my thought was that they were the only good race of people in LOTR who were dark skinned.
I agree with Freddie that JRRT did seem to give the darker invaders from the south the benefit of being ordinary good people who were duped or promised things from Sauron from what Tolkien said in Sam's thoughts when he looked upon the dead man in Ithilien.
Even playing the LOTRO game, I don't see very many people creating their characters with darker skin tones. I am sure they are out there, I just haven't seen many. I've created a couple dwarfs with dark skin and they look pretty awesome!
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 15, 2021 13:48:32 GMT -6
Side note: There are some Tolkien fans that really don't like the Professor being accused of racism. There was a similar thread in a Tolkien Facebook group a while back and I posted about his likely unconscious biases. I got attacked and accused of overreacting or of being racist myself! White fragility, what can I say? LOL -- yes I have gotten the same reaction from "over-protective" Tolkien boosters. |
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Post by Androga Erindalant on Feb 20, 2022 10:41:28 GMT -6
Old thread, but I still wanted to add my little coin.
Tolkien wanted a story that would be comparable to legends and myths. He placed the world in some sort of ancient England or West-Europe. It would not matter how Tolkiens world looked like when he was writing. Today, London is a multicoloured metropolis. How did that same area look around 100 BC, in a celtic era? Perhaps the Roman invaders were "dark" compared to that local population.
Which skin colour would we expect the old norse gods had? And the skin tones of the Greek/Polynesian/Maya/... gods? Myths usually are local stories. While today we can travel in a single day to the other side of the world, a long time ago, ancient Rome was a very long and dangerous trip, especially when someone had to start from London. We cannot accuse the old Norse/Greek/Polynesian/Maya of their limited view, can we?
A writer also has to simplify things. You can't write something like: Minas-Tirith is a Gondorian city, and about 30% of the inhabitants is brown-haired, 20% is blond-haired, and since the city is on a principle trader's crossing, despite all hostilities at the borders, about 15% of the population has a darker toned skin, another 12% has a really dark skin, 9% clearly has an eastern look, 2% has the purple hue of the faraway Kelraphisaloghiz(1), and all the rest are the mixes that we really can't fit into any of the above, but actually they all still feel like true Gondorians anyway. (2)
Realistically, I would expect that in a city on that location on the map. In human history, despite the many wars, trading and mixing continued. I don't think Tolkien wouldn't have been aware of that.
Unfortunately, when we have to use limited words (and simplify matters) especially comparisons can easily become black and white. Do we want to tell a story? Do we want to present our readers with a truly complex society and a hundred of additional pages to describe the many variations within each population and then compare these to each other? Who will continue to read if we did?
(1) Not of Tolkien origin... unless I got really unlucky while inventing a new area.
(2) The percentages were nothing but randomness of my own choice. I will not go into further discussion why I chose to give only 2% of the Minas-Tirith population the purple hue of the faraway Kelraphisaloghiz and thus accidentally marked them as the supposed lesser race. For the record. 
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 20, 2022 14:50:41 GMT -6
So right you are, Androga. One would think there would have been a variety of people in a large metropolis as Minas Tirith. Whether they lived there or were passing by and/or trading. Star Wars is a good example of such. |
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Post by Androga Erindalant on Feb 21, 2022 15:40:58 GMT -6
There probably was such large variety! Tolkien just didn't mention the obvious?... ;-)
He can't tell us anymore, so we can just speculate. What's more important than accusing someone who is not among us anymore, is how we handle everything now.
Star Wars... the books? The movies? In movies it's easier to tell. You don't need as many words. Just a bunch of people and aliens passing by in the background.
So that's what amazon and any director for any future movie need to do, in any adaption based on his works, while also respecting the original writings.
Just a small thought to add, based on my own experience. It's easier to write about what you know best. I admit that I know far too little of ancient African, Asian, and American history. So on that area, I could more easily make mistakes if I try and write a story in such inspired area. If my ideas go wrong, would I then become disrespectful? Racism is a very sensitive matter, and even good intentions could go wrong. Maybe the professor didn't venture those areas much because he felt his knowledge still remained too little? Again, this is speculation.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 2, 2022 7:40:45 GMT -6
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