Orgulas' Sil Study CH 4

[Desi Baggins]

Sil Ch 4: Of Thingol and Melian

Melian was a Maia, akin to Yavanna. She lived in the gardens of Lórien, and among all his people there was none more beautiful than Melian, nor one more skilled in songs of enchantment. Nightingales went always with her, and she taught them their song. In the time the Elves awoke at Cuiviénen she left Valinor to fill the silence of Middle-earth with her voice.

Like already is told, the Teleri rested in East Beleriand at the Gelion, while many of the Noldor still lived in the west of Beleriand. Elwë, lord of the Teleri, often travelled through the woods to Finwë, his friend of the Noldor. On one of his travels through the forest of Nan Elmoth he suddenly had heard a voice among the song of the nightingales, and was enchanted by it. He followed it into the forest, forgetting his people, and got lost. But finally he arrived at a glade where he found Melian, in who’s face he saw the light of Aman. They did not speak, but Elwë went to her and took her hand. At once a spell came over them and they stood like that for long years. Thus Elwë’s people did not find him, and Olwë accepted kingship over the Teleri and departed. Elwë later became king of all the Eldar in Beleriand; the Sindar or Grey Elves. Melian was his queen and their halls were in Menegroth, the Thousand Caves, in Doriath. Though he was king over the Úmanyar he himself was accounted among the Elves of Light, as of all the Sindar he alone had seen the Trees of Valinor. Elwë never again came over the ocean to Valinor, and Melial never returned as long as their realm existed. From their love the fairest of all Children of Ilúvatar was born.

This is only a small chapter. Why is it important? What do you think of the love between a Maia and an Elf?

[Andorinha]

Just what is good old JRRT "up-to" here? Melian, as one of the lesser Ainur, a Maia to be specific, would probably represent an equivalent character of "divine," godly stature in the Norse pagan tradition, or its kindred Olympian system. So we have a bit of "miscegenation" taking place when Melian tumbles into Elwe's heart, and he into hers. Why?

1. Was Tolkien interested in displaying his personal disdain for the keeping of strict race laws in Middle-Earth, and used such pairings as Maia and Elf; Elf and Man to simply thumb his nose at the racist norms of his own western-European society as it stood between 1890 and 1950? But, if so, why are their no Dwarven pairings with Men, Elves, and Maiar? Did Tolkien consider, in some way, that the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men -- but not Dwarves) were akin to the Maiar/ Valar though vastly reduced in their scopes of power?

2. Did Tolkien use such pairings (Melian +Elwe; Beren + Luthien; Arwen +Aragorn) to demonstrate that his orders of Valar, Maiar, Elves and Men differed only in degree, and were all rooted in the same substance, and rooted closely enough so that these mixings could produce viable offspring capable of futher unions that could produce children? If so, Valar/ Maiar/ Elves and Men actualy form a single species. Is Tolkien trying to illustrate this connection? Are Men akin to the Angels?

3. There is in religious studies a category called (in Greek) "Theos Aner," a person who is of mixed divine and mortal parentage. This concept Tolkien would have been familiar with from his studies of the Graeco-Roman classics and almost any course on the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religion. Is Tolkien introducing such a class of beings, the half-divine mortals, when he allows for this mixture of the separate categories of Men, Elves, Maiar, and Valar? Here, is he simply following the lead found in many pagan religions where the sons of men mate with the gods to produce the semi-divine heroes like Gilgamesh, Herakles, Achilles, etc, etc?

I have not yet found a letter from Tolkien detailing just why he allowed "mixed marriages," and whether or not he ever systematized this theme, or assigned it an underpinning set of theories and laws.

This intermixture does allow some elements of the divine to enter into and enthuse the "lower" orders, giving certain individuals a true birth-right to exercise dominion over their lesser brethern (as the royal house of Numenore has the right to rule all men by virture of its "ennobled" status, its partially divine blood). So is the conservative Catholic JRRT simply detailing his acceptance of a "Divine Rights" monarchy with all this mixture?

Is this what JRRT was trying to achieve when he allowed the "races" of his Middle-earth to interbreed?

[Stormrider]

I found it odd that Melian was attracted to and fell in love with Elwë--well maybe not odd that she fell in love with him, but stayed with him for the lifetime of their marriage.

In most classics where the angelic or divine intermix romantically with humans, they have their "fling" with the human and still reside in their heavenly abode rather than stay with the human.

I don't remember that any of Melian's and Elwë's offspring were any more extaordinary than any other Elf except that they were more fair. What other abilities did they possess? I don't remember--perhaps I need to go read about them.

As far as any mixed marriages with Dwarves, it seems that there aren't many female Dwarves to begin with. Perhaps the Dwarves never considered intermingling with humans, elves, or the divine because they wished to keep the Dwarven race "pure" since the race lacked females.

Actually Tolkien never wrote for the action of his story to pass through any living, breathing, full-fledged Dwarven village that was thriving so we can't say how many females there really were. The Lonely Mountain was abandoned when Smaug invaded it. Those living in Moria were killed off. I can't remember much about Dwarven communities in The Silmarillion. Female Dwarves (or Dwarvesses?) are not mentioned or seen.

[Desi Baggins]

It is interesting how the Dwarves didn't have any mix marriages. Then again the dwarven race is very mysterious.

The cross of races is interesting. Did Tolkien use this Maiar and Elf cross to represent mix race relationships or is it symbolizing relationships between societies; like rich and middle class?

Was Melial looked down upon for marrying an elf?

[fanuidhol]

Fascinating subject! I noticed a long time ago that in most, if in not all of Tolkien's pairings of Maia/Elf/Human it is the male who "marries up". Even Elwing is Maia/Elf/Human while Earendil is just Elf/Human. I had assumed that it was for psychological reasons: Tolkien putting women on a pedestal. However, I came across this in Majorie Burns' Perilous Realms, Celtic and Norse in Tolkien's Middle-earth, where she states that this is a tendency in fairy tales and occasionally in adventure stories, "and in doing so unite what is magical, sensitive (and Celtic) with what is heroic and masculine (and Teutonic)." pg 138. A page earlier, on 137, she notes that in heroic literature male inheritance and bloodline is important. Though Tolkien has many more male characters than female, in many families there is a "ancestress whose marriage into the line elevates the family..."

While reading this thread one of my first thoughts was that Tolkien started mixing Maia, Elves and Humans quite early in his writings. So, I went to Lost Tales and then to Tolkien and the Great War by John Garth. Melian in one of her earliest forms in Lost Tales II was Gwendeling, Fairy Queen of Artanor. "Indeed she was a sprite that escaped from Lorien's gardens" pg 6, LTII. The land was kept hidden from Melko (Morgoth) "by the magics of Gendoling the fay" pg 7. On pg 8 she is called "daughter of the Gods". Her enchantment of and subsequent marriage to Tinwelint (later Elwe) seems quite Celtic in flavor to me.
And in this version of the Tale of Tinuviel, Beren is a gnome! (Gnome - a type of elf, many of whom were slaves of Melko. Gnome = Noldor, eventually)

John Garth wrote on pg 217 in Tolkien and the Great War that in The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien reverted to a "more ancient view of elves [which] allowed Tolkien to draw upon the old motif of the faery bride, with the intermarriage of human Tuor with Idril of Gondolin"

Also, Dwarves were evil in these early writings, which could be a reason why there were no intermarriages at this stage. I have been racking my brain for an example of Dwarf/Human intermarriage in myth/fairy-tale. I can't come up with any.

So with the above in mind, the reason Tolkien gave us mixed marriages is simply because fairy-tales, myths and legends do!
Fan

[Desi Baggins]

Great findings Fan!!!!

[Andorinha]

Stormrider -- "I found it odd that Melian was attracted to and fell in love with Elwë--well maybe not odd that she fell in love with him, but stayed with him for the lifetime of their marriage."

Ah, this intrigues me as well. Why are these two attracted to one another, and why do they "stick together unto death?"

It seems a bit repetitive that the Thingol/ Melian pairing, and the Beren/ Luthien union both involve a lot of singing with/ as/ like those most melodius of birds, the nightingales. Is there something about the voices of these birds that is conducive to falling passionately in love?

"Nightingales went always with her [Melian], and she taught them their song... she filled the silences of Middle-earth ... with her voice and the voices of her birds." (Sil. chpt 4, p. 55 hb version)

Beren: "In his heart he called her [Luthien] Tinuviel, that signifies Nightingale..." (Sil. chpt19, p. 165 hb version)

The females sing/ dance, the males become entranced. Hmmm, not sure here, but this sounds mighty like a version of the Sirens'-song that lured the wily Odysseus. Luckily, both Thingol and Beren come to happier ends than do the mortal men who listen to the alluring wails of the Sirens, or the Lorilei, but I think the mechanism remains the same. Both Thingol and Beren become "bemused" by the songs of these females, both forget their tasks and fixate upon the sources of these nightingale melodies, and both pursue (almost helplessly) the sources of these enchanting songs.

"Then an enchantment fell on him [Thingol]... and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind..." (Sil. Chpt. 4, p. 55, hb version)

"Then all memory of his [Beren's] pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment... " (Sil. chpt. 19, p. 165, hb version)

Both our swains wander through the forest, following the bird songs of their respective enchantresses, love-stricken, until at last they catch up with these singers, and in both cases, the females simply fall immediately into love with their audiences. Thingol takes Melian's hand, she apparently perceives he is absolutely in love with her, the deal is done. Beren finally finds his voice, cries out the powerful word "Nightingale" (in Elvish, of course!) and Luthien "loved him" ... Wow!

Somehow it sounds improbable, but both these unions do persevere. As you point out, Stormrider, the unions between gods and mortal that fill the pages of the Classical literatures, are mainly transitory, often mere affairs of momentary lust. But in Tolkien (perhaps influenced by his Roman Catholicism?) once the bargains are struck, they remain for life, and possibly beyond it.

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RE Stormrider's : "I don't remember that any of Melian's and Elwë's offspring were any more extaordinary than any other Elf except that they were more fair. What other abilities did they possess? I don't remember--perhaps I need to go read about them."

If I remember this tale aright, Melian and Thingol have one child, Luthien, and a grandchild Dior. Luthien does seem to have special, more than Elven powers in her abilities to alter her form to appear to be a vampire, and does possess the ability to sing even Morgoth into a deep and dreaming sleep. Perhaps these are Maiar powers? Her son, mighty as he was, seems not to have had "magical" abilities himself -- diluted blood from the mortal Beren?

I think Tolkien is usually consistent in showing the effects of interbreeding in a fair manner. Luthien is half Elven, half Maiar, and lacks the full power of her mother, but seems more powerful than her fully Elven father. Dior is one quarter Maiar, one quarter Elven, and half human. He seems unable to control his own desires, unable to subdue his own ego, and winds up being murdered by some greedy Dwarves as they argue over the nauglamir. Definitely, Dior is not as mighty, and esteemable as Luthien, his mother.

________________

Re: Dwarves --

I am worried here that Tolkien's own (moderate) racism may have made it unlikely that he would ever consider a mixture between Hobbits and Dwarves, or Men and Dwarves, and especially NO mixture between Elves and Dwarves.

From some of his statements in The Letters, Tolkien seems to have made at least a haphazard connection between Dwarves and Jews. I do not know how far this connection can be/ should be pushed, nor what it really meant to Tolkien. I certainly do not find him to be outwardly anti-semitic, in fact several other letters show that he found such sentiments despicable -- but still, he does attach stereotypes to the behaviours of his Dwarves that he thinks can be found predominantly among Jewish folks and in their culture. This, to the post World War Two generations, is probably much more disturbing than it may have been while Tolkien was writing his Silmarillion corpus -- he had not yet learned of the massively fatal result anti-semitism would produce under Hitler's regime.

Tolkien also gives the Dwarves a quite separate genesis, they are primarily the Children of Aule, and only secondarily hallowed and accepted by Eru, whereas the Elves and Men are both called Eru's Children. It may simply never have occurred to Tolkien that Dwarves would want, or even be capable, of mixing genetically with the other races of Middle-earth. Nonetheless, to produce Saruman's Uruk-hai, humans and Orcs (Elves once-removed) were able to interbreed. So, why not (if the "Jewish" identity for Dwarves ever was really a part of Tolkien's concept -- something I am not certain of despite The Letters) could we not expect half-Dwarf, half human, or half Elf mixtures?

Beats me.

Yeah, Stormrider, Tolkien does not really give us an insider look at the Dwarves in their Delvings, their stories are always interpreted for us readers, passed through the minds of the Hobbits, or Gandalf. It would really be interesting had Tolkien had the time to write a book about/ for/ by the Dwarves themselves!

[Andorinha]

RE Desi's: "The cross of races is interesting. Did Tolkien use this Maiar and Elf cross to represent mix race relationships or is it symbolizing relationships between societies; like rich and middle class?"

I find this very interesting, Desi, because I never thought along this line before you suggested it. I am reviewing modern European history this summer while taking a course on the "Early Middle Ages," and one of the major points the historians make is that in feudal times there were no real Class Divisions, rather "Orders" of society bound to one another by reciprocal obligations. Tolkien certainly sets his Middle-earth stories in a sort of Middle Ages matrix, and in The Letters he talks about the older english society of the pre-industrial age, a time of "Social Orders" rather than strict Marxian Classes. So, there may be some very fruitful investigations in just what these mixed marriages meant to Tolkien in terms of Order and Class. There may be a very valid way of interpreting mixed marriages in Middle-earth through either an Order/ Class approach quite distinct from the Race approach we have been using! Wow, I'll have to think long and hard on this matter!

[Andorinha]

Hullo, Fanuidhol!

RE Fanuidhol's: "So with the above in mind, the reason Tolkien gave us mixed marriages is simply because fairy-tales, myths and legends do!"

Patterns, patterns, patterns everywhere!

LOL! I like that, "uppity males," er, upwardly mobile males! On the face of it, I would also have attributed this consistency to the RC Tolkien's "pedestalization" of the female, though it may not work for the archetypal divine/ human pairing found in Roman Catholicism...

Your qoutes from Marjorie Burns are interesting in that it may point to a conscious attempt by Tolkien to seek "authentic" models from real life history upon which to base his Middle-earth characters. Does she have any direct quotes from Tolkien material to make this connection? That would be really kool! I can see the applicability of her interpretation, and it is certainly suggestive that JRRT did follow this pattern, but does HE say so anywhere? I suppose he could have still used this pattern unconsciously? Either way, I like the connection!

As a sidelight here, I was always worried/ disturbed by the Eol and Aredhel "marriage" -- a pairing that follows the pattern of the male (a Dark Elf of no distinguished line) marrying-up into the High Noldoran Royal house of Fingolfin -- but it seems more like a "rape" than a marriage. Recently I found that there were Anglo-Saxon forms of marriage by rape, something Tolkien would certainly have known about, and now, it looks to me like he was following an historical model as his pattern here as well.

The Celtic angle you mention is something that really catches my attention. In his letters Tolkien often disassociates himself from the Celtic aspect of British history, and seems to down play the significance of Celtic themes in his Middle-earth. He seems especially to exclude the influence of the Celto-Romanic Arthurian cycles -- despite the many similarities of Merlin/ Gandalf, and a "King in Waiting." As you mention it, it sounds to me as if Tolkien, in his formative, early works, may have followed -- without much discrimination -- patterns from Classical Graeco-Roman literature, some from Norse sources, and even a good many themes from Celtic material. Later on, I think he tried to both Saxonize and Christianize his early themes, but never got around to making all the older tales really consistent with this later focus.

Re Fanuidhol's: "Also, Dwarves were evil in these early writings, which could be a reason why there were no intermarriages at this stage. I have been racking my brain for an example of Dwarf/Human intermarriage in myth/fairy-tale. I can't come up with any."

Ah, someting else I never thought about before: when do Dwarves leave the Petty Dwarven mold of Mim ( Sil. chpt 21, p. 202-206, and p. 230 hb version), and take on the heroic, esteemable characteristics of the House of Durin. I simply do not know if Tolkien's Dwarves were, in his earliest tales, consistently of the evil, or at least mischevious sort. That is something to follow up, when and why (if he did!) did Tolkien redeem his Dwarves and make them something other than the pests of the "Rumplestiltskin" kind?

Off hand I cannot recall in the broader Fairy Tales genre, the actual mixing of Dwarfs and Men, except for one version of Snow White that might be a late Middle-ages "bowlderization" or "racy parody" of the original. I'll see if I can find the source on this version.* Then there is the question, what did Rumplestiltskin intend to do with a human baby? Something"unspeakable," I presume -- either eating or mating?

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*I think it may be Maria Tatar's "Hard Facts of the Grimm's Fairy Tales," where she details the earlier versions of many Fairy Tales that were cleaned up for later audiences, usually the sexual and cannibalistics aspects of the tales were dropped...

[fanuidhol]

In reply to Andorinha's latest post to Stormrider:

Why does Melian stick with Thingol? Remember she is a "real" immortal. In the scheme of things, I think staying with Thingol for as long as she did is still a very temporary "fling" so to speak. But, as it says in Silm.: "She took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Iluvatar and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda." --"Ruin of Doriath" chapter. I think this means that she became as much of an Elf as she could, in body and soul. As explained in Morgoth's Ring, "Laws and Customs of The Eldar" when Elves fell in love and got married, they did so for life (not by law, but, because that's how they were) and sometimes longer. With the loss of Thingol and Luthien now a mortal, Melian could and did return to her Maia origins.

Was this "love and marriage for life" a Catholic influence or was Tolkien a romantic? I am not sure, perhaps both. The fact that the elves didn't need a law, but instead were made this way, leads me to suspect that Tolkien romantically wished for a more perfect and long lasting union of male and female. I have no proof of this..and frankly, as a romantic myself, I rather just leave my speculation as is.

I believe the enchantment of Thingol and Beren had much less to do with the Greek "Sirens" as it does with "faery" folklore. Faeries loved to dance and sing, and many a human found themselves enchanted because they strayed into Faery territory. "Fairy Rings" (mushroom circles) are what is left behind from such a night of dancing. In some of the folklore, hundreds of years (a'la Thingol) may pass in a single night. In others, the human must dance to exhaustion or if they eat or drink they become prisoners. And still in other stories the Faery takes (abducts) a human as a lover or spouse.

As far as nightingales go, I think Tolkien was almost as fond of birds as he was horses. Have you noticed how often birds are mentioned? I think the use of nightingales for both Melian and Luthien was simply a "like mother, like daughter" thing, a suggestion that Luthien was more like her mother than her father.

I do not believe Tolkien's suggestion that the Dwarves were like Jews, meant anything more than what is stated in Letter 176: "at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue." If he and the person he was writing to lived in the US today, he could have just as easily substituted Amish for Jews. (Just using this as an example that some Americans might be able to relate to as in having no prejudice against the Amish, just a knowledge of their differences from mainstream Americans.)

I spent much more time than I should have yesterday on the Internet trying to find examples of Dwarven intermarriage in fairytale, folklore, or myth.
Several sites suggested that in Old Scandinavian folklore "Alfar" were half Dwarf/half Gods: www.mythologyfacts.com/articles/a/alfar.html
but if you google "alfar" you will find other sites that suggest alf (ar) closely resembles elf. I did not explore this further.

There were two "almost" marriages between human and Dwarf: www.readprint.com/chapter-6491/Andrew-Lang and www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm027.htm

And Ta Da: a very boring bit of folklore of an actual Dwarf/Human marriage (without issue): www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm082.htm

Though the blood of the Dwarven race had remained (relatively) pure for so many centuries in the past, I found that the Internet gaming/role-playing community, and more "modern" fantasy authors, professional and amateur, happily intermarry Dwarves with any other race imaginable.

Saruman did create half-orcs, but, I disagree that these were Uruk-hai. But, that discussion belongs in a different thread.

More later.
Fan

[Andorinha]

RE Fanuidhol's "I do not believe Tolkien's suggestion that the Dwarves were like Jews, meant anything more than what is stated in Letter 176: 'at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.' If he and the person he was writing to lived in the US today, he could have just as easily substituted Amish for Jews. (Just using this as an example that some Americans might be able to relate to as in having no prejudice against the Amish, just a knowledge of their differences from mainstream Americans.)"

Letter # 176 is not the one I am most closely refering to. It is, of course, the most easily accessed of the letters containing Dwarvish/ Jewish comparisons as my notes tell me that it is the ONLY one so listed in the index. Look a little deeper, see if you can find the one that lists the salient personality characteristics of the Dwarves: grasping, overly concerned with money, clannish, secretive, standoffish, suspicious etc, etc and then states (paraphrasing) "sort of like the Jews, don't you agree?"

I have packed up most of my Tolkien books, so I'm going on memory here, and if you have your copy of the Letters and can track down this particular reference, posting it in full would be very helpful.

RE "Uruk-hai," YES! The books merely mention human-orc mixtures, the Uruk-hai interpretation slipped in from the movie version. Thanks for the correction.

[fanuidhol]

On to a reply to Andorinha's reply to me:

"On the face of it, I would also have attributed this consistency to the RC Tolkien's "pedestalization" of the female" I was thinking more in terms of Tolkien's feelings about his mother and to a lesser extent his wife. After all Edith was the inspiration for Luthien. If there is a Mary connection it would have to be only because she is "better" than any other human and this transferred to many of the females in Tolkien's myth.

Another thought about "The Pattern", since Tolkien has many more male characters, perhaps the way to equalize the sexes in the story is to give most females a greater "nobility". This may be what Burns was hinting at: "ancestress whose marriage into the line elevates the family..." pg 137 of Perilous Realms.

As for a real world model for a female ancestress "enhancing" the patriarchal line, Tolkien may have looked at himself. Though he was proud of his Germanic "Tolkien" name, it was his English mother that gave him a home (in the ancestral sense) in the West Midlands of England. Letters 30 and 44. This may not be what Andorinha was looking for, but it was the first thing to come to my mind.

That Tolkien repeats the pattern in at least one Hobbit ought to be mentioned. "the mother of this hobbit...was the famous Belladonna Took" who's father was the "head of the hobbits who lived across The Water." pg 31 of The Hobbit. It was also speculated by others that there was a fairy wife in that line.

Letter 153 -- about Elf-Human marriage -- "It occurs of course in 'fairy-story' and folk-lore, though not all cases have the same notions behind them." I don't quite understand what he means by "notions".

The Eol and Aredhel union may not be the only example of marriage by rape. Imrazor, the Numenorean, wedded Mithrellas, companion to Nimrodel. Unfinished Tales pg 260. After she had a son and a daughter, she left Imrazor. Apparently no love there, and probably no real consent, either. This was how the line of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, got its Elven blood. The Pattern, yet again.
Tolkien may have based these on historical events but, don't forget that marriage by rape occurs in folklore, too.

Well, I got to go. Still not done here though.
Fan

[fanuidhol]

Andorinha:
www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=7846
tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html #7
Offhand, I don't know what letter you are refering to. Was it perhaps the interview mentioned in the first link, that you recall?
Fan

[Andorinha]

I'm still trying to track down the full/ correct text and citation for my paraphrased example of JRRT coupling Jews and his Dwarves. I have it listed in one of my older tirades so I'll keep looking for one of the 2003 debates where I may have cited the quote fully, meanwhile I'm trying to avoid unpacking 20 or 30 boxes to find one specific volume, Carpenter's "The Letters." A quick google search coupling Tolkien/ Jews/ Dwarves does show me that others have noticed this text as well, but no one (so far) has given te actual source! Grrrr!

From Edward Cone's blog we have the bare mention of the text I am looking for:

"Confirmation from Tolkien himself of this observation that the Dwarves of Middle Earth were Tolkien's Jews. 'The dwarves...wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews?'..."

edcone.typepad.com/wordup/2002/05/tolkiens_jews_c.html

The Jewish Journal also quotes this text more fully, while trying to clear Tolkien of any overt and nasty anti-semitism (a view I agree with!). It does show that Tolkien did, at times, succumb to "sterotyping" in both the analyses of Dwarves and Jews. Unfortunately, no one but TR writers ever seem to give their quotes a textual citation, and even here, The Jewish Journal fails me...

JRRT: "'I didn’t intend it, but when you’ve got these people on your hands you’ve got to make them different, haven’t you?' he replied. 'The dwarves of course are quite obviously — wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic. The Hobbits are just rustic English people.' "

www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=7846

This full quote is interesting in a linguistic sense, as well as for the "racism" it might display. Many of Tolkien's languages were based on REAL earth languages: Rohirric = Old English; Elvish tongues = Finnish and Latin intermixed. That JRRT might have deliberately constructed Dwarvish to mirror a semitic tongue, I had forgotten. Such a connection does make sense if we accept the general use of "patterns" taken from the real world to act as the bases for the peoples, languages, societies, and behaviours of his Middle-earth creations.

Another note: The interview format of the above quote does not fit most of the letter forms used in Carpenter's collection of JRRT's correspondence, sigh, that means it may be in some other book after all...

Eureka! The statement is actually made in a recording of Tolkien's own voice:

From archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2002w52/msg00057.htm

"Then, in a 1971 BBC radio interview two years before he died, he was asked if the different races in The Lord of the Rings represent specific characteristics, 'the elves wisdom, the dwarves craftsmanship, men husbandry and battle, and so forth?

'I didn't intend it, but when you've got these people on your hands you've got to make them different, haven't you?' he replied. 'The dwarves of course are quite obviously -- wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic. The Hobbits are just rustic English people.' "

__________________

LOL! While I was writing up my post, the esteemable Fanuidhol was doing the same search! GREAT!

[Andorinha]

RE Fanuidhol's: "The Eol and Aredhel union may not be the only example of marriage by rape. Imrazor, the Numenorean, wedded Mithrellas, companion to Nimrodel. Unfinished Tales pg 260. After she had a son and a daughter, she left Imrazor. Apparently no love there, and probably no real consent, either. This was how the line of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, got its Elven blood. The Pattern, yet again. Tolkien may have based these on historical events but, don't forget that marriage by rape occurs in folklore, too."

Great job, Fan! I had utterly forgotten this text. I'll have to do some thinking on this, as it seems another pattern is being repeated here. Nightingales, marrying-up, rape-marriage. Is there a pattern also in the love marriages that goes beyond Melian/ Thingol and Beren/ Luthien? Aragorn and Arwen has a similar situation, doesn't it? Where lower-ranking male sees female, is instantly smitten, chases after her, cries the magic word "Tinuviel!" and wins her hand rather readily. I am also trying just now to recall the "courtship" pattern of Goldberry and Old Tom. Does it fit here as well? I'd better go read some more.

I've got some more detailled responses I'll work up later.

A fun topic!