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Post by Androga Erindalant on Oct 28, 2005 15:02:46 GMT -6
Sil Ch8: Of the Darkening of Valinor
When Manwë heard Melkor had fled to the north, he believed Melkor intended to return to his old stronghold. But instead Melkor had turned back and went south in secrecy, to go to the land Avathar, where Ungoliant lived. In elder times she had been amongst those that descended from the darkness around Arda. She had been corrupted by Melkor, but had disowned her master. She had taken the form of a monstrous spider that weaved black webs that sucked up all light. Melkor found her and plotted his revenge with her, but she feared the Valar. Therefore Melkor made her the promise that he would give her anything she asked for if her hunger wasn’t satisfied after their assault. She agreed and wove a cloak of darkness, through which an eye couldn’t see.
It was a time of festivities in Valinor, to thank Ilúvatar for the fruits of Yavanna, of which the Children of Ilúvatar ate and drank. As the Valar liked to dress them, they too ate of these fruits. At that time, Manwë held a feast greater than ever before, as he wanted to heal the evil that had come over the Noldor. The Vanyar and the Noldor of Tirion came and sang for Manwë and Varda, and only the Teleri stayed near their homes, as the shadow hadn’t touched them yet. Fëanor came also to the feast, as he was the only one commanded to. But Finwë and none of the Noldor from Formenost came. Neither did Fëanor dress for the feast, nor did he wear any jewels. He met his brother Fingolfin there and shook his hand.
Melkor and Ungoliant however arrived at the Two Trees at that moment. Melkor smote each Tree to its core with his spear, wounding them deep. Their sap poured out, which Ungoliant drank to drain both Trees. Still thirsty, Ungoliant drank the Wells of Varda dry as well. She swelled so much that Melkor became afraid.
So darkness fell over Valinor. Only Manwë’s eyes could see through the night, but he saw a darkness through which even he could see. He knew though that Melkor had come for revenge. The pursuit began immediately, but when they reached Ungoliant’s could they were blinded and got lost. |
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Post by Androga Erindalant on Oct 28, 2005 15:04:04 GMT -6
Was it a good idea of Melkor to seek aid from Ungoliant?
What could Manwë and the other Valar have done to prevent Melkor’s evil deed?
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 25, 2007 14:11:57 GMT -6
2. What could Manwë and the other Valar have done to prevent Melkor’s evil deed?
Probably nothing.
The Valar of Tolkien's Silmarillion are patterned so closely upon the old Norse deities that I should be used to their frailities and fallacies by now. They are not, nor were they ever meant to be fully omiscient, omnipotent gods. Just as Thor and Odin can be tricked by Loki, outwitted by Giants, fall down stupified by over-eating and drinking -- so too are the Valar, time and again outsmarted by Morgoth, cozened by him, and nearly ruined as they attend feasts and celebrations. Understanding the Valar as "limited" gods, however, does not lessen my frustration when they make mistake after mistake, and it just does not seem plausible that these "mighty" Valar could have been left in charge of an entire universe -- what was Eru thinking!?
Sigh, even we lowly humans can see far enough ahead to send guards and scouts to all the quarters of the realm when there is a dangerous escapee at large. But the gods of Middle-earth simply assume Morgoth will go north, back to his old haunts, and they look to those cold regions only, and after missing him, they re-double their watch upon that boundary, but fail to turn their searches elsewhere, and fail to guard all the perimeters with this "redoubled" vigour. The continent of Aman is then vulnerable from the west, east and south.
These gods seem also to have very little of the virtue of persistence. Having once missed him, they do not continue to scour the universe for Morgoth. Nor have they ever, seemingly, had enough curiosity to do a good geographical survey of their own continent. Apparently no Vala or Maia has ever seen fit to explore and map out the boudary lands:
"Thus unseen he came at last to the dark region of Avathar. That narrow land lay south of the Bay of Eldamar, beneath the eastern feet of the Pelóri, and its long and mournful shores stretched away into the south, lightless and unexplored." (Sil. hb version, p. 73 emphasis mine)
Why is Avathar "unexplored?" Have the "good" Valar and Maiar no sense of curiosity/ discovery, no idea of geographical exploration, no idea of "security?" Anything could be dwelling there... In fact, something is -- Ungoliant. As hungry as this Ainur-Spider must always be, are their no rumours of her deprading presence? What does she eat in Avathar, only light? What else is there in this place of darkness? Why have not the Teleri voyaged around the limits of their adopted continent, and brought back tales of inhospitable shores where mariners who land may not come back to their ships? Why have the "hunters of Oromë" always looked ever to the north "and the south was long unheeded?" (Sil, hb, p. 73)
Sigh, I think one word answers all: predestination. (see Sil. hb, "Ainulindalë," pp 17-18)
From its inception, all things in Ea/ Arda, the mortal and immortal lands, were already fixed, "written," unchangeable. The gods of Amman are supposed to fall prey to Morgoth's wiles, time after time. They are supposed to fail when they chase after him, supposed to blindly forgive him and re-instate him after each betrayal, until the very last. The Valar cannot alter the destiny of their universe, they cannot "think ahead," they cannot act preventively to secure their own well-being. The gods of Middle-earth are caught up in the meshes of their own unfolding history, and so they must make mistakes, it is so "fated!"
While I understand that the poor Valar are limited in this way, it still does not relieve my scepticism and my frustration when such superior and sublime creatures make so many "avoidable"mistakes...
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Post by fanuidhol on Apr 26, 2007 5:29:17 GMT -6
While I was reading your post, Andorinha, a stray thought came to mind -- the Valar are as shortsighted as some modern day politicians.
Fan
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 27, 2007 16:23:30 GMT -6
Hullo, Fan,
Yes, politiks is politiks it seems -- godly or mortal...
Both chapters 8 and 9 might be read as indictments against those who rule. I do not know when these two chapters were first composed, but I find myself making WW I and WW II comparisons here. Especially Feanor's bombastic/ persuasive demagogeries. Probably JRRT had something else in mind here, but such comparisons do leap into my mind as well!
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Post by Andorinha on May 5, 2007 20:45:09 GMT -6
1. "Was it a good idea of Melkor to seek aid from Ungoliant?"
Hmmm, did Melkor regret his "bargain?"
First, did Melkor know of Ungoliant's presence on the southern margins of Aman? He was apparently familiar with her from past ages when she first decided to follow his lead down into Evil, but they had had no contact for a long time. When Melkor went south, instead of north (after he killed Finwe and stole the jewels of Feanor) was he heading deliberately to Avathar to find her? If he was looking for her, he apparently thought that she would make him a suitable ally in his mission to destroy the Two Trees, and then escape to Middle-earth. The statement "Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out;..." (Sil. chpt 8, 1971 hb version, p. 73) suggests to my mind that he did know where to find her, and if he had any doubts about his ability to control her, they were minimal concerns.
When he met Ungoliant in Avathar he could, I think, see that she would suit his purposes, but was powerful enough in her own right that he could not simply command her obedience. He had to bargain with her, offer great inducements, flatter her, and play upon her insaitable hungers in order to secure her help. She provides him first with a cloak of darkness-invisible, but I wonder why? At this point Melkor can still go "unfleshed" and unseen on his own, why does he need her cloaking? (see hb version, p. 74) And, secondly, she provides the means by which the Trees are not only drained, but their very husks and roots are poisoned beyond recovery. Here, Ungoliant may be indispensible to Melkor, perhaps he could only wound the Trees by himself, allowing the Valar to heal them, but Ungoliant could insure the full death of both.
So, -- and I am merely setting forth opinions at this point -- it looks to me as though Melkor has thus far made a good bargain. It is only somewhat later that Melkor may have had second thoughts about using the Great Spider. Ungoliant seems to have grown in power and menace after feasting upon the blood of the Two Trees, grown far greater than Melkor thought she ever could. He now may have begun to regret involving himself with her: "... Ungoliant belched forth black vapours as she drank, and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid." (Sil, hb ver., p. 76)
In their conjoined escape to Middle-earth, picked up in chapter 9, Melkor tries to avoid her, but she is powerful enough to stay ever with him, demanding all the while more and more to sate her lust. Fearfully, he shovels the fine gems of Feanor's house into her maw, reserving only the Three Silmarils for himself. At last his own overpowering lust forces him to deny this most dangerous of "allies" her final feeding. She turns on him and he seems unable to defend himself. At this point, if he had time to think about it, I believe Melkor might have regretted his decision to approach the Spider. His anguished cries save him then, as they awaken his obediant servants, the Balrogs of Angband. Their combined strengths at last serve to chase the bloated arachnid away.
In retrospect, Melkor (now become the lesser creature Morgoth) may often have whined about his permanent diminishment during this encounter. Ever after he could only appear as a Great and Terrible figure of Darkness, he could not assume a fair form, nor walk unseen. But, he had the Silmarils, and he had a nearly undisputed sway over Middle-earth for another full age before the avenging (belated vengeance indeed!) Valar would end his tyranical career.
On the whole, I guess Morgoth could feel "successful" in his actions, though I wonder if this dread Lord of Terror, might have had, ever-after, nightmares filled with spiders...
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Post by Stormrider on May 6, 2007 6:30:24 GMT -6
Andorinha stated:
Ha! It would serve him right!
And Andorinha prviously stated: Bolding is mine.
How did Ungoliant gain so much power before Melkor took her on the mission to devour the Two Trees and steal the Silmarils? She wasn't of the Valar or Ainur. What kind of light was in Avathar? I wonder what else she ate there, too, Andorinha!
I can see how sucking up and draining the Two Trees would give her more power but before that? Her newly acquired hugeness must have frightened Melkor (err...now Morgoth!) no end! Especially if he is now called Morgoth and is diminishing in his own power.
And another comment from Andoinha:
I just don't understand predestination. Why would Ilúvatar (or our own God) plan for failures--especially on the part of the Valar and Maiar (or angels and Adam and Eve)? If the idea was to create a beautiful perfect world, why have evil and disaster strike as if it was planned?!?! That has always baffled me.
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Post by Andorinha on May 10, 2007 21:46:40 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider -- "How did Ungoliant gain so much power before Melkor took her on the mission to devour the Two Trees and steal the Silmarils? She wasn't of the Valar or Ainur. What kind of light was in Avathar? I wonder what else she ate there, too, Andorinha!"
1. "The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those he corrupted to his service." chpt 8 p. 73, Sil. 1977
2. "For though the Valar did not yet understand fully what had befallen, they perceived that Melkor had called upon some aid that came from beyond Arda." chpt 9 p. 79 Sil. 1977
I have thinking about these matters for a week or so now, and I have made a brief search trying to find more data on Ungoliant -- largely, I've come up with very little. The two quotes from chpts 8 and 9 of the 1977 version Silmarillion seem to be all we get. HoMe vol. X, Morgoth's Ring, pp 98 - 101 basically gives us the same information with a few variations:
#105 - "It is told that Melkor came to the dark region of Arvalin. Now that narrow land lay south of the Bay of Eldamar, but upon the east of the mountains of the Pelori, and its long and mournful shores stretched away into the South of the world, lightless and unexplored. There, between the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark Sea, the shadows were deepest in the world. And there secretly Ungoliante had made her abode. Whence she came none of the Eldar know, but maybe she came to the South out of the darkness of Ea, in that time when Melkor destroyed the lights of Illuin and Ormal ..." (HoMe X, pp 97-98
#126 - "With their whips of flame they [the Balrogs of Angband] smote her webs asunder, and they drove Ungoliante away, and she went down into Beleriand and dwelt awhile beneath Ered Orgoroth in that valley which after was named Nan Dungorthin... But when she had healed her hurts and spawned there a foul brood she passed away out of the Northlands, and returned into the South of the world, where she abides yet for all that the Eldar have heard." (HoMe X, p. 109)
A second version of the Silmarillion story, "The Later Quenta Silmarillion," gives us yet one more minor variation of Ungoliant's origin:
#55 - "There the shadows were deepest and thickest in the World. In that land, secret and unknown, dwelt in spider's form Ungoliante, weaver of dark webs. It is not told whence she came; from the Outer Darkness,* maybe, that lies in Ea beyond the Walls of the World. In a ravine she lived, and spun her webs in a cleft of the mountains; for she sucked up light and shinning things to spin them forth again in black nets of choking gloom and clinging fog. She ever hungered for more food." (HoMe X, p. 190)
#55c - "There the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world. In Avathar, secret and unknown save to Melkor, dwelt Ungoliante, and she had taken spider's form, and was a weaver of dark webs. It is not known whence she came, though among the Eldar it was said that in ages long before she had descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the light in the kingdom of Manwe. But she had disowned her master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness." (version 3 of the Silmarillion, p. 284, HoMe, vol X)
What I get from all these separate versions, is just a tiny bit of knowledge:
1. Ungoliant came by herself into Arda dropping down from the Outer Darkness of Ea.
2. Apparently she had known Melkor in the very ancient days before Ea was sung into creation, and during the first Music she was corrupted by him to become egotistical and start serving her own desires before all else. She never became fully subservient to Melkor as did other of the spirits like the Ainur that would become the Balrogs. Independent minded, but not as powerful as Melkor, she may have been one of the lesser Ainur, a Maia rather than a full Vala.
3. After Ea was created, and then the Walls of the World were raised to seperate the Outer Darkness from Arda, she seems to have remained for a while outside Arda, in the Great Void, in the Darkness. Later, perhaps at the time the lamps were destroyed by Melkor, she descended into Arda to suck in what light she could while she remained hidden in the dark places of the world.
4. After assisting Melkor in the destruction of the Two Trees she could still not be saited, and pursued him to Middle-earth where she was driven away by the Balrogs to seek again some dark place as a dwelling far in the south of Middle-earth.
Now, just speculation on my part, Stormrider, but I think, if Ungoliant was originally one of the Ainur, she would have had a great deal of power placed in her at the time of her own creation. But something seems to have been dysfunctional in her make up, just as something went wrong with Melkor. She apparently had some need that was not met by her mere creation, a hunger that was out of proportion when compared with that of many other Ainur. She seems to have tried to fill this innate emptiness by devouring light, but just as light has no real, material substance, each mouthful of that thin stuff just left her all the hungrier. Apparently she did gain some sort of power from eating what light she could -- and when she gets the chance to drain the enormous energies of the Two Trees she becomes mighty indeed -- but still, her curse is to never become full, to be ever-hungry, a sure sign that she was ingesting the wrong substance. So what did she really lack? Was she actually looking for, maybe, something like the original source of creation, of life, the Flame Imperishable? Maybe if she could have obtained some of this potent stuff she would have been able to satisfy her hungers?
I wonder if this is the reason she stayed so long in the Outer Darkness? Remember that Melkor also wanted, above all other things, to find and possess the Flame Imperishable. Melkor also spent a great deal of his early time searching through the emptiness of the Outer Dark, looking for that flame. Did Ungoliant, hungry for this one true form of satisfying nourishment also spend a great deal of her early time searching for it in the Darkness?
Unfortunately for both of them, the Flame Imperishable is stated to be always with Eru, a matter of his own being. As Ungoliant and Melkor searched ever deeper into the Outer Darkness for this flame, they drew ever further from the One Creator God, and the Flame itself. No wonder they became progressively hungrier and sicker, always moving away from the fundamental truth of existence. They should have bound themselves ever close to Eru, if they wished to be near the source of that most perfect of nourishing lights...
What a further punishment to poor old Melkor, to be finally expelled from Arda, where at least the results of the Flame Imperishable could be seen, felt, lived, thrust instead into the Darkness once more, pushed ever further from the sources of life/ creation that he so desired to possess.
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*regarding the definition of the "Outer Darkness:"
HoMe X, pp. 62-64 define as best they can the cosmography of Ea, the
created universe. Inside Ea we first have the great void, the outer
darkness, then comes a boundary that separates night from Arda,
sometimes this boundary is called the Walls of Night (p. 62) and
sometimes they seem to be the equivalent of the Walls of the
World.
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Post by Stormrider on May 11, 2007 6:10:24 GMT -6
I saw a TV show once about a an eating disorder where some children couldn't get enough to eat. The parents of the kids had to chain up the refrigerators and cupboards to keep them out. They also had to lock the kids into the house so they wouldn't wander off looking for food or someone to give them some. When the ice cream truck drove by one kid would howl and scream the entire time that he could hear the music playing. The kids had nothing but eating on their minds. It was a very sad show and I can't imagine being like that. It seems Ungoliant had the same disease.
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Post by Andorinha on May 13, 2007 16:13:16 GMT -6
LOL! Cosmic Eating Disorder! I think that is quite appropriate for both Melkor and Ungoliant. It makes sense, in a speculative way, to me, that these two villains of Middle-earth would always feel empty so long as they allowed their own egos to be the dominant controls of their lives, but I cannot find any handy Tolkien quotes where he even hints that this is the metaphor he was using... sigh.
In real life, of course, like with the poor kids you mention, wow, what a horrible disorder to have. My sympathies go out to all with such a dysfunction.
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