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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 29, 2007 20:27:32 GMT -6
For Christmas, my daughter gave me the first volume: The History of the Hobbit: Mr. Baggins by John D Rateliff. I finished the first chapter. All I can say is "Holey Sheet!" My world has been turned upside-down. I don't have much time but, you know how in "Letters" Tolkien maintained that The Hobbit "intruded on" "was on the edge of" his mythology. That may be true of the published book, but, Rateliff has begun a convincing argument that from the earliest draft, Tolkien planted it firmly in the soil of M-e. I just had to tell somebody. Fan
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 29, 2007 21:43:39 GMT -6
Fan, as you get further into your new book, could you tell us some of the ways that Tolkien planted it! That would be most interesting to know.
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 31, 2007 10:59:50 GMT -6
Yes, I echo Stormrider's query! It would be a grand reversal in my thought if Rateliff can convince me that there was an early, deliberate, strong placing of "The Hobbit" into the legendarium. Is this Rateliff's take on the material? Or does he wave a JRRT letter that confirms the hypothesis? Very interesting!
Thanks, Fan, for any information you can extract, I'm not yet recovered enough in the purse to buy any more books.
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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 31, 2007 12:40:02 GMT -6
The first chapter of HotH:MB is titled "The Pryftan Fragment". (Pryftan=Smaug). After a bit of explanation about why it is a "fragment" (beginning pages missing), the story starts with all the Dwarves in Bag End already. The first "funny" thing that is noticed was the name of the Goblin who's head got knocked off to help invent the game of golf -- King Fingolfin. Our Elvish Fingolfin was already in existence at this time. Rateliff believes this is a casual borrowing of an existing name. At this point this was an unpublished and unfinished story. Sorry, I'm going to have to coninue later. Fan
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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 31, 2007 22:03:45 GMT -6
The major evidence of an early link to M-e is the map of Fimbulfambi. (Fimbulfambi=Thror). This ancestor of Thor's map is also the precursor to the map of Wilderland. I'm having a difficult time summarizing Rateliff's essay on this subject. "Comparison of the first Silmarillion map in Volume IV of The History of Middle-earth with Fimbulfambi's Map shows a striking parallelism in the former's placement of Taur-na-Fuin and Dor-na-Fauglith, the ruined plain to the north between Beleriand and Thangorodrim also known as Anfauglith, and the latter's Wild Wood and Withered Heath..." (pg 20) Rateliff places Lonely Mountain just off the Eastern edge of the Silm map, near where Tolkien would later place the Hill of Himring. In Silm, Anfauglith is where the dragons were first seen. The Withered Heath is where dragons used to live at this stage of H. Later on there was shifts in the geography.
In the second phase of writing, (I haven't read that far yet) there is a cancelled reference to Beren and Luthien and the Necromancer. There is some more evidence that will have to wait for another time.
Andorinha, save your money for awhile, HotH will be coming out in paperback. Scheduled in 3/2008 across the pond. Don't know when in the USA. Fan
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 1, 2008 10:57:14 GMT -6
Fanuidhol -- Hmm, this list of parallels appears so far to be discrete items of geographic and nomenclatural (is that really a word?) coincidence. I would expect many such, as, in fact the common stage for all these works is Tolkien's imagination. I guess what I'm looking for (to be able to accept a fundamental connexion of "The Hobbit" with the legendarium) is some sort of functional/ structural relationship where Bilbo's tale is seen to be embedded in the early myths and dependent upon them? Maybe this is going to be simply a matter of degree? On one hand I can see where "The Hobbit" fits nicely into the background Silmarillion tales, so that, I think JRRT had only a little bit of fiddling do to in order to bring Bilbo's saga into a nice conformance with the rest of the mythology -- but I still wonder how much of "The Hobbit" was a spontaneous "independent" creation?
Thanks for the advanced notice of a paperback version, sigh, I'll start piling up my quarters...
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 1, 2008 12:37:42 GMT -6
How about something that shows the Hobbits as one of the children of Ilúvatar--or descendents of one of the races. Fangorn/Treebeard had never heard of the Hobbits in the list of peoples that he mentions to Merry and Pippin. That would be something to look for while you are reading, too.
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Post by fanuidhol on Jan 2, 2008 13:49:25 GMT -6
Now, now, Andorinha, don't be hasty. I said in my earlier reply that there was more evidence.... *pulls Andorinha aside and whispers - Try a "D" in the "wheel of Tolkien" game.*
Explaining/understanding some other things about the map will be easier if you have The Annotated Hobbit annotated by Douglas A Anderson (mine is the 2002 edition). In the Introduction to the above book, pg 10, is the original map that I've been referring to. The compass rose: north is represented by the Big Dipper, south is the sun. East shows a sun rising over a gate or arch. Rateliff believes that this symbol is "The Gates of Morn" mentioned in 'The Tale of the Sun and Moon' from BoLT I. To the West is a 3 tiered mountain. Rateliff admits that this could be The Misty Mountains, but feels that it is more probably Taniquetil. Two years before, Tolkien painted Taniquetil, a tall peak surrounded by lesser peaks. The literal translation of the runes that are located to the left of the pointing hand are "Fang the secret pasage of the Dwarves" (passage is spelt pasage in the text) 'Fang' is Gnomish. In BoLT, one of the races of Dwarves is 'Indrafang' or 'Longbeards'. I haven't had tme to read further... Fan
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 3, 2008 8:15:47 GMT -6
LOL! OK, OK, I'll wait til you've had more time to fully deploy the data Rateliff uses -- but, I guess I still am looking for something along the lines of "deliberate intent" versus "circumstantial" connections? Nonetheless, after a while, I'll grant you, Fanuidhol, a string of circumstantial connections that goes on for page after page, begins to gain some persuasive power in itself...
Huh? Speak up der, Fan, don't mumble. Humpf, why do people have to whisper so, never can understand a word (or even a letter) of their meaning. Oh well, I'm off!
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 4, 2008 12:53:55 GMT -6
Fan, I do have the "Annotated Hobbit," so fire away when you are ready!
Oh, I managed to work out (entirely on my own) the "proper" letter for the wheel game, "D" as in dust. I do wish I could have understood your "aside," might have saved me some exertion... (grin)
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 1, 2008 17:12:33 GMT -6
Sorry that I have left you hang for awhile, Big-mouth...err I mean Andorinha. I haven't got much further into reading HotH. Consider this paragraph found on pg 73 in HotH that would have been placed almost at the end of Chapter 1 of the published Hobbit had it been kept. Chap 1, mind you. A similar but, modified paragraph stands in the published work. He is the Necromancer. "'Don't be absurd' said the wizard. 'That is a job quite beyond the powers of all the dwarves, if they could be all gathered together again from the four corners of the world. And anyway [others>] his castle stands no more and [his>] he is flown [ added: to another darker place] - Beren and Tinuviel broke his power, but that is quite another story...." Later on, after the swords of Gondolin were found there was a timeline problem. I haven't quite gotten that far, yet. Fan
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 1, 2008 17:30:47 GMT -6
Fan: Have you read any of the first scripts of LOTR where the hobbits were named Bingo, etc. and Trotter had sore feet and wore wooden shoes?
I was wondering if the History of the Hobbit had any samples of the old passages as JRRT had first written them. It would be interesting to see if and how he may have changed the story along the way.
Does Ratecliff mention anything about hobbits being created sometime after the first and second children of Iluvatar were awakened? That would be interesting to find.
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 1, 2008 17:57:04 GMT -6
Stormrider, actually what seems remarkable is just how close to the published text the first chapter is, compared to the various drafts of the first chapter of LotR. But, I guess JRRT had alot of practice with The Hobbit since it was an oral tale first. In the very late 20's to very early 30's Dwarves were evil in Tolkien's legendarium and came from stone (if I re-mem-ber correctly). The Hobbit was a complete turn-around in JRRT's thinking on the Dwarven character. At this point, there is no word on the origins of Hobbits or Dwarves. I'll let you know. Fan
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 2, 2008 11:06:03 GMT -6
Big-mouth? Yes, er, well, HARUMPH! So, I go to the dentist fer a new crown, get my lips stretched out to my ears like a Halloween pumpkin, and YOU start mocking me new appearance! Well, Fanuidhol, I just happen to know you recently got a new hairstyle, but do I run around blathering about it, or calling you Spikey-purple-mohawk? HUMPF! RE: SPM's "He is the Necromancer. ... 'Don't be absurd' said the wizard. 'That is a job quite beyond the powers of all the dwarves, if they could be all gathered together again from the four corners of the world. And anyway his castle stands no more and he is flown [added: to another darker place] - Beren and Tinuviel broke his power, but that is quite another story'...." Ah, now this is what I was hoping you would find, some REAL connections that would further, solidly root The Hobbit in the backstory mythos. Before this message, strictly looking at the Necromancer references in The Hobbit we have, I still maintain, no connection between Sauron and Bilbo's "Big Nasty" in the southern forest. Here, is a GOOD connection, though something that intrigues me is just how certain this passage connects Necromancer with Sauron rather than Morgoth? I'm wondering if Tolkien yet knew which Silmarillion character the Necromancer was going to be? A resurected Morgoth was to be the Necromancer of the Third Age? Or is this writing, strictly speaking, before he even mapped out an ending for Morgoth after the last battle of the gods? Thanks, Fan, I'm revising my old opinions, will go swallow a pie whole for breakfast now, unexpected bennefit of present 'big-mouth' status -- makes eating a momentary pleasure, more time left over for reading! Please, MORE, when you get the opportunity.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 3, 2008 7:52:05 GMT -6
Fanuidhol: That's right! Tolkien did tell the tale to his children first. I forgot about that. Writing it down would be easier with less erasing and rewriting then.
Andorinha: I was wondering about who Tolkien thought the Necromancer would be, too. The thought had crossed my mind that it might have been Morgoth in the beginning. But I guess Tolkien decided to put that big badie to rest and let the Valar and Maiar be at peace for a change. A full fledged Valar might be too much for a mere Middle-earth to handle. If he was too wiley for the Valar, then how much more so for the elves, dwarves, men, and hobbits?
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