|
Post by Andorinha on Nov 11, 2004 13:50:20 GMT -6
I was just reading some of the bits Tolkien was working up in his last years of life, found in HoMe X, "Morgoth's Ring." In a discussion that got started on another site, we wanted to know what would happen to Frodo if he ventured into the Immortal Lands of Valinor. This involved a bit of research regarding what I have euphemistically dubbed Tolkien's use of "Systematically Variables Times."
Of immediate relevance to such a discussion, is "Aman and Mortal Men," pp.427 - 431. Here, Tolkien developes a scheme of Time whereby the clocks run differently in the Mortal realms of Middle-earth (The Shire), the Elven Realm of Lothlorien, and the heartland of Valinor/ Aman.
So, just what would have been Frodo's fate in Valinor?
**** I think there is some doubt that Frodo ever went to Valinor itself. In Morgoth's Ring, HoMe X, JRRT was re-working all of his backstory mythologies (again) and, pp. 427-431, he addresses the plight of Mortals in Valinor. Basically, they would burnout in just 6 months time. This would not allow Frodo and Sam to meet again, would it? Or does JRRT mean time to move differently in Valinor? It appears then, that Frodo would have stayed on the fringes of Valinor, the half-world stage of Eressea where the healing graces of the Undying Land still operated, but on a scale that would not burn the poor Hobbit out in just a short time.
Another note by JRRT specifically mentions Frodo as being in Eressea, and does not refer to Valinor at all: "The sojourn of Frodo in Eressea -- then on to Mandos? -- was only an extended form of this. Frodo would eventually leave the world (desiring to do so). So that the sailing in ship was equivalent to death." (HoMe X, p. 365)
Letter 264, 1963 tells us: "Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done, before he died."
From this, it may be that Frodo's wounds (especially his consciouness that he had in the end "failed" in his mission) might not be currable short of the final release of death.
But, more hopefully, the Letter continues: "So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil."
*****
This matter of Time is a peculiar thing, I think. I mean, what's it for? In most novels of the Faery sort time is usually taken for granted, it is a background dimension, and though a princess may be ensorcelled and sleep for a hundred years, that hundred years is still a plain, simple, ordinary hundred years. So why does Tolkien go to all this seemingly unnecessary bother to create sliding scales of Time attached to different geographic locations?
Did Tolkien deliberately mean us to see that time is variable in his Arda?
Hmmm... I rather think he did! Especially with Lorien, where there was no Moon all the while the Company stayed there, and poor Sam, in some ways the most intuitive of them all, the most close to the earth and its natural rhythms, seems to be the first to recognize that something "out of normal time" has occurred. I think the first intimation of this is revealed rather subtly when they have returned to the proper flow of time upon the Great River: "There the white rind of the new Moon could be seen glimmering in the remote lakes. Sam looked at it and puckered his brows." (The Great River, chpt IX FotR, pp. 498)
Again, on p. 499, Tolkien specifies the precise shape and position of the Moon at sunset, and even gives us the number of days elapsed since they left Lothlorien. Why? Mere scene setting might require a romantic mention of the Moon, but the details concerning placement and date? Apparently this Moon business, this measurement of Time is, in Tolkien's own assessment quite important. Further on we finally reach the long prepared concluding scene, pp. 502 - 503, when Sam voices his concern: "Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. 'It's very strange,' he murmured. 'The Moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of its running, or I'm all wrong in my reckoning." etc.
Sam is perturbed, because, according to his own count, he has lost a full month, some 30 days of which he can only recall three nights having been spent in Lorien. External Time, it would seem, flowed by 10 times more rapidly for the Hobbits while they were in Lorien.
Frodo replies, with a very important statement that Time did indeed seem to flow at a different pace in Lorien, and he adds a crucial bit of lunar observation: "And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadon: only stars by night and sun by day." FotR, p. 503
In olden times, it was the changeable Moon that served as the major marker of the passage of Time. One day's Sun is pretty much indistinguishable from the next, but the waxing/ waning Moon served our ancestors very well as a quick measuring device for Time. In the Nordic mythologies that Tolkien studied so deeply, the Moon is likewise the pre-dominant marker of Time, and it was furthermore identified (see Snorri's synopses in the "Prose Edda") with the Norni: "The names of the three Nornir are Urdr, Verdandi and Skuld, words which may be translated Past, Present, and Future: so that when 'the three giant maids came from Giant-land' they brought with them time; then the timeless existance of the youthful gods in the Ancient Asgard ceased, and they put off their immortality. From the 'coming of the women' [the Norns] the predestined events must take place one after the other until the Doom of the Gods." (Gods of the North, Brian Branston, p. 209, 1980).
These Norns, these Fates, these wardens of Time, past/ present/ future are likewise associated with the major phases of the Moon. The Norns in fact are the Moon, and they are Time, and fated destiny as it plays itself out in the flow of history.
Consequently, when Tolkien takes the Moon out of Lorien, he is, I believe, telling us quite clearly that regular Time, and its normal measuring device (The Moon) have both been suspended. It is not until the Company returns to "Moon-Time," that they re-enter their own normative Time flow.
Tolkien's deep "Moon concern" in this regard, seems, at least to my way of thinking, to show his strong desire to clue us readers in that Time is an important matter in his work, and that it is systematically variable there. Time flows at different rates for different peoples when they enter "alien" realms. I extend this to include Valinor/ Aman (whether the Moon shines there or not!). Mortals in Ring-Sustained Elven Realms, find a 1:10 alteration in the passage of Time. A Mortal staying a year in Lothlorien would, I suspect, leave that land to find ten years had gone by in his/ her hometown. In Valinor, the ratio seems to be a magnitude greater still, 1:144.
Apparently, since this Time-Concern is already present in the 1940s - 1950s written LotR, this element of differential times was not just something he concocted in his last years of life as he tried to systematize the Silmarillion material and reduce it to a more consistent "final" version. Tolkien has something going on here that is of a long-standing, and deeply fundamental nature in and to his Middle-earth. Just why he uses this device of differential Time, I am not sure, what the whole thing "means," I do not know, but I am convinced he takes a lot of trouble with Time for some greater purpose... Still searching!
|
|
|
Post by Desi Baggins on Nov 12, 2004 9:26:46 GMT -6
I would also like to know the meaning of Time in LotR. I have often been amazed at how much effort Tolkien put into explaining time in the story.
I had read recently (forget where) that when mortal man passed over the sea it did not lead to everlasting life, that man would die even there. After reading that I assumed that life would be longer than normal, but now after reading what you have found it sounds like life is short. I just hope that Frodo and Sam where able to see each other one last time. I am also happy to know that Frodo's pain was healed before it was his time to die.
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Nov 12, 2004 22:15:21 GMT -6
I know that from seeing the manuscripts at Marquette and talking to other Tolkien fans, scholars with published books, and the archivist, JRRT intended to make his world like that of Earth in a time long long ago.
He paid particular attention to the phases of the moon and the stars. He rewrote the whole chapter on the Dead Marshes because the timing was off.
The land of Middle-earth may not be exactly the same land formations of our Earth today, but the sky has not changed in thousands...err...millions...billions...of years.
From Hobbits, Elves, and Wizards by Michael N. Stanton
Stanton even mentions that the days, nights, and seasons are like the Northern Hemisphere of our Earth so it would be recognized and not mistaken for any other planet.
I agree that Frodo probably did not actually set foot on Valinor itself. The Elves even lived on the edges of it in Eldamar. I like to believe that he stayed there with Galadriel and Elrond and their kin and that they took care of him in the time that was left him. I wonder how he was able to cope once he got there. It seems his wounds were too deep to ever be cured, but I always hoped that he would find some comfort that would at least help ease some of his suffering.
Andorinha: Your thoughts, quotes, and research on time being different in Lothlórien from the rest of Middle-earth is very interesting. Keep digging and I hope you find more on this subject...in the meantime, I will have to go back and read that chapter because I just don't remember the comments about there not being a moon! But that is just my age showing...either from forgetfulness or from not being observant and attentive during that chapter.
|
|
Ninhiisenen
Orc
Elf-Maid of the Misty Blue Water
Posts: 23
|
Post by Ninhiisenen on Jan 7, 2005 23:54:06 GMT -6
Though you said the concern of time was rather neutral in The Silmarillion, it makes me wonder how time was altered with Arien and Isil, with the two trees that I always forget the names of or how to spell (OK, Telperion is one, woohoo for me ) Anyway, what about the Darkening of Valinor, how much was time... umm... lapsed... there? It would be interesting to do a study of Middle-Earth time measurement in whole.
|
|
|
Post by Magpie on Jan 8, 2005 10:23:09 GMT -6
A good resource for this discussion might be "A Question of Time" by Verlyn Flieger. I haven't read the book yet, but it's high on my list. A review and links for other 'time' discussions and Flieger's web site can be found at Greenman Review www.greenmanreview.com/a.question.of.time.htm
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2005 5:23:49 GMT -6
Ninhiisenen: GOOD IDEA! I know very little about the differential time flow in Valinor, and it would be helpful if we could add that as a sub-topic on time, time as Tolkien saw it.
Magpie: Thank you for alerting us to this source on time. I will now convert my penny collection to loonies and see if I can scratch up the purchase price of Flieger's "A Question of Time." From reading the review, I am sanguine that Flieger will have a good deal of material to add to this discussion!
|
|
|
Post by Fanuidhol on Jan 15, 2005 7:15:25 GMT -6
Congratulations on becoming a Dwarf, Andorinha. I am paying attention to such things, since I am still stuck in Orc-dom.
Just last night, I was reading "The Great River" chapter of The Treason of Isengard, vol VII of the HoMe series, in which Time plays a role. Tolkien found it difficult to choose among "normal" Time, Timelessness, and "slowed" Time. He spent countless hours shifting chronology.
Bilbo says this about Rivendell in "Many Meetings" of FotR: "Time doesn't seem to pass here: it just is. A remarkable place altogether." Though it doesn't say it explicitly in Treason of Isengard pg 83, it sounds like these lines predated the Great River sequence. Yet, Rivendell is different from Lothlorien. And remains so even into the published work. The only thing I can think of, why this is so, is a passage in the Lothlorien chapter of LotR where Frodo feels like "he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days." Perhaps, those mortals who remain in the relatively "modern" Rivendell feel its near timelessness, yet only those who leave the "ancient" Lothlorien feel its near timelessness. Could Tolkien have been making a comment here about differing beliefs about Faerie? (Which I know nothing about.) Thanks, Fan
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Jan 16, 2005 4:50:52 GMT -6
Clifford D. Simak titled one of his 1950s science fiction books "Time is the Simplest Thing." He was not thinking of Tolkien when he wrote that...
Appended to the chapter titled "The Great River" in The Treason of Isengard, HOME VII, (see pp 367 - 369) is the perplexingly complex "Note on Time in Lorien." Here as you note, Fanuidhol, "Tolkien found it difficult to choose among 'normal' Time, Timelessness, and 'slowed' Time. He spent countless hours shifting chronology."
I am currently working my way through this morass of conflicting "time schemes" in the hope that I can eventually figure out just which of his schemes Tolkien finally decided to use. At the moment, on the pages of two other sites, we are locked into situations of opposite-interpretation that seem to allow us no compromise solution. In looking directly at the two versions of "The Great River," one found in TOI (pp 350 -369, and the other standing as the published version of LotR, chapt 8, pp 492-510 PB) I maintain that Tolkien finally decided to have time run "slower" in Lorien relative to time in the external world. So, Sam feels three days have gone by while they were in Lorien, or perhaps several more, while in the external world of mortal time, a full month has sped by.
Regarding Lorien Sam says "Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month." (LotR, "The Great River," pp 502-03 PB).
From the review of V. Fliegher's "A Question of Time," kindly provided by Magpie, I think that this is also her interpretation, but I do not have Fliegher's book to check this assumption. After reading TOI "Note on Time in Lorien," Fanuidhol, what scheme do you think Tolkien is actually using in the text of "The Great River"?
So far, I was letting the Rivendell references to a "different sort of time" hang fire. But, now that you have broached this aspect of the topic I'll re-read the material both in the TOI and LOTR versions where Bilbo alludes to some sort of "time differential."
Off the top of my head, Bilbo's reference (FotR, Many Meetings, p. 305 PB) -- "Time doesn't seem to pass here: it just is." -- does not give us much to work with. Are there any other "time-related" remarks by any of the other characters who flit through Rivendell? I cannot recall any. In Lorien we have many statements that attest to something being different about the flow of time in Galadriel's realm, but in Rivendell, we just have Bilbo's musing statement. Consequently, I have always interpreted Bilbo's statement as being a descriptive fancy of his, perhaps a metaphorical device? I never had the impression that time really was different in Elrond's realm, and if its time flow were compared to the external world's, they would be found to be the same.
In my thought, Rivendell is only vaguely like Lorien. Rivendell is a much smaller place, town or city sized? Where Lorien is a fairish sized country requiring several days travel, for a hobbit, to cross. Both are "protected islands" of Elvishness, but Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn and the four hobbits all remark upon how vastly more "magical" and exotic Lorien is, even when compared with Rivendell.
Rivendell also acts as a general meeting place for all the kindly disposed races of Middle-earth. Dwarves and Men pass through its boundries century after century without commenting that they had to "re-set their clocks" each time they left. Aragorn lived there for years, as did many of his ancestors, with no apparent displacement in his/ their Numenorean life span(s). So I guess I just always assumed that Elrond was not as powerful as Galadriel, and his ring Vilya was not as potent as her Nenya. Elrond could not appreciably hold back, retard, or alter the flow of time. So, in Rivendell, I think, a day spent within the effective borders of this place was just the same as a day spent outside. But for Lorien, three to six days inside the ambit of Nenya's power-zone equalled a full month of external, mortal-land time.
Here, Fanuidhol, if I am not mis-interpreting your statement ("Yet, Rivendell is different from Lothlorien. And remains so even into the published work.") seems to make the same point. Whatever time alteration is going on in Lorien, it does not necessarily mean it will be present in Rivendell.
RE: Fanuidhol - "Perhaps, those mortals who remain in the relatively 'modern' Rivendell feel its near timelessness, yet only those who leave the 'ancient' Lothlorien feel its near timelessness."
This intrigues me. Quick in, quick out in Rivendell, and a mortal would not really notice much alteration in the flow of time. It takes a longer stay in Rivendell to realize that its time is different? But in Lorien, stay 3 to 6 days, walk out, and you realize that a full month has slipped by. Is this what you mean here? If so, then time would flow slower in Rivendell than outside it, but not as slowly as it flows in Lorien?
Alternatively, do you see both places equally "timeless" but a mortal's perception of this timelessness is greatly enhanced when he/ she is in Lorien?
Or: Sam is, I think, not really aware of time's odd passage while he is actually inside Lorien. But once he leaves it, and the phase and position of the Moon remind him, then he can appreciate that something strange has happened to time while he was in Lorien. Bilbo, by staying so long in Rivendell, with his body aging at a normal mortal rate, sees so little change in the Elves about him, that it seems as if time stands still there? But a mortal who stays only a week or so in Rivendell, as the 13 Dwarves and Bilbo did during their Dragon quest, would not notice just how unchanging things were in Elrond's house?
RE: Fanuidhol -- "Could Tolkien have been making a comment here about differing beliefs about Faerie?"
Yes! I think we need to look at his poem "The Sea Bell," (pp 57-60 in "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, in The Tolkien Reader) to get one of Tolkien's views about Faerie and its impact on a mortal. Then look at his notes concerning what would happen to a mortal who entered Valinor (see post one of this discussion). Here we have two somewhat different Tolkien views of Faerie which share at least the common characteristic that Mortals do not belong in an immortal realm.
But I'm not sure if this is what JRRT had in mind when he gives us version one, Rivendell, and version two, Lorien. Two places where mortals do meet The Faerie Phenomenon, one seemingly mild in its impact (Rivendell, mortal-friendly?) and the other a place of grave peril where "none who enter come out unscathed" as Boromir put it...
Of the two Elven establishments about which we have detailed knowledge, I think Lorien vastly more potent, more "strange" and more like the wild Faerie Realm we see in "The Sea Bell," where mortals are soon rejected and driven mad. Of course, as even Gimli shows us, those who enter Galadriel's Faerie need only fear the evil they carry in themselves...
Hmmm, lots to think about here! A new perspective for me, THANKS Fanuidhol!
|
|
|
Post by Fanuidhol on Jan 16, 2005 6:24:04 GMT -6
Andorinha, I don't have time right now to reply to your post point by point, but, I wanted to write this down before my "cloudyheadedness" sets in.
You wrote: "Rivendell also acts as a general meeting place for all the kindly disposed races of Middle-earth. Dwarves and Men pass through its boundries century after century without commenting that they had to "re-set their clocks" each time they left. Aragorn lived there for years, as did many of his ancestors, with no apparent displacement in his/ their Numenorean life span(s). So I guess I just always assumed that Elrond was not as powerful as Galadriel, and his ring Vilya was not as potent as her Nenya. Elrond could not appreciably hold back, retard, or alter the flow of time. So, in Rivendell, I think, a day spent within the effective borders of this place was just the same as a day spent outside. But for Lorien, three to six days inside the ambit of Nenya's power-zone equalled a full month of external, mortal-land time. "
What if the Elven Rings, which one purpose was to preserve, could allow Time to be subjective to the individual? For instance, what if Bilbo's Time is "frozen" (a method of preservation) because he is remaining in Rivendell "indefinitely". The others' Time, since they are passing through, isn't even "refrigerated" in Rivendell. If this theory is true, then Elrond using Vilya could still be as powerful as Galadriel using Nenya. Thanks, Fan
|
|
|
Post by Fanuidhol on Jan 17, 2005 6:12:10 GMT -6
Has anyone ever noticed that the likelihood of a computer crash/system glitch or something like that is directly proportional to the length and eloquence of a post? You'd think I'd learn to copy the post before I try to send it. Yesterday around lunchtime, I wrote a nice post, but was signed out by the time I tried to send it...grrrrr. One of these days I'll learn. Andorinha, you asked which time scheme I thought that Tolkien settled upon. I'd like to think that it is the 'slowed' Time scheme. My reason for this is because of the character Tolkien chose to use. In developing the sequence, (TOI, pg 365, notes 7 and 9) Tolkien first used Trotter (Aragorn - who at this point in the evolution of LotR, had never been to Lorien before) to wonder about the moon phase and Time differential. I understand this choice of character, since a Ranger used to being out in the wild would be attuned to such things. But, then Tolkien made a curious choice and moved the comments to Merry. Why is beyond me. Perhaps I missed something in the development of the character. Anyway, then, Tolkien gave it to Sam, the gardener. A good gardener is acutely aware of "Natural Time": seasonal changes, moon phases, day length, etc. (For instance, gardening by the phases of the moon is not some hocus pocus silly stuff. The moon affects more things than just the tides and werewolves.) If Sam says they weren't in Lorien a whole month, then I want to believe him. But, there is some abiguity in the way it was written in FotR. Personally, I think it comes down to how much a reader wants to believe in Faerie. Could be that Tolkien wanted us to decide for ourselves, individually. Brilliant man that he was, I see this as a good possibility. When was "the Sea Bell" written? You may be right that Bilbo's comment concerning Time in Rivendell might be one of perception rather than physical. If physical things remain unchanged and you watch the extremely slow aging Elves , it may seem like time is standing still. But, I still don't think you can conclude that Vilya and Elrond are less powerful than Galadriel and Nenya. Perhaps it is a natural tendency for Elven enclaves to have "slowed Time", and Elrond has to reverse this tendency so his house may not be "perilous" to visiting mortals. By the way, are there any time "anomalies" in Thranduil's kingdom? I haven't read past chapter 1 in the Hobbit so far and I forget. Andorinha, you made a comment about "time related remarks" in Rivendell, which my thought process took out of your context and into another line of thinking: What remarks are made using time related words or phrases in Rivendell and Lorien? I counted over 15 instances in the first conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in the "Many Meetings" chapter of FotR. I excluded references that were about events outside Rivendell. Some words and phrases included: 10 o'clock, October 24th; half hour ago; four nights, three days; [several instances of] soon; [several instances of] for the present; etc. Most of the time-related remarks were made by Gandalf, so I'm not sure that I can make a sound comparison by just counting instances. I think a better comparison would be using the choice and count of those words and phrases spoken in each realm by mortals only. This might be an indicator of the effects of Time in each place. I'll work it out and let you know eventually. The most likely conclusion will be that I am reading way too much into this whole thing. Thanks, Fan
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Jan 18, 2005 9:59:30 GMT -6
Fanuidhol:
One of life's vicious attacks: a perfect essay, filled with wondrous thoughts, surpassing insights, and all so cleverly, carefully worded -- GONE in a cyber flash! I have had such crushing experiences myself, I feel your pain!
I try to write in a word program, with a fixed save-function running each two minutes, but sometimes that rushing flow demands immediate expression on the TR page, and then, as you point out, after a full page of "magnificent" stuff, it is suddenly gone.
___________________
So far, my running count on three different Tolkien platforms is 4 people (myself being one of them) think Tolkien -- as the text stands in both TOI and LotR -- meant time to run slower in Lorien when compared with the external, mortal lands. One person, highly versed in Tolkien lore, and skilled in forensic debate, holds out the view that Tolkien finally decided to abandon time flow differentials altogether and have Lorien time pass at the same rate as outside time.
I like your thoughts on the alterations Tolkien goes through in assigning certain statements first to one character, and then another as the book evolved. There may be nothing more in this than a desire to keep each character engaged in the scenes as they play out, or, as you suggest, there may be more thought behind this re-assignment of lines than I can fathom at present. I agree that it makes sense to have Sam, in the final LotR version initiate the time differential discussion -- he is close to the earth and its natural rhythms/ times, as one would expect from a gardener!
Here, I like your summation: "If Sam says they weren't in Lorien a whole month, then I want to believe him. But, there is some abiguity in the way it was written in FotR."
Yes. The situation is ambiguous. I think Tolkien got confused himself concerning all the ramifications of a time differential. There are seasons in Lorien, but if time flowed 30:1 slower, or 20:1 slower, or even just 5:1 slower than the outside world, the seasons of Lorien would soon be out of synch with the rest of Middle-earth. Frodo and gang would enter Lorien in the winter, stay a short while and find it was high summer outside when they left. The night-time skies would be all messed up as well -- a winter constellation like Menelvagor (Orion) would be visible at the zenith in Lorien while a hundred feet outside Nenya's time field, Scorpio might suddenly be at the zenith.
After considering all these anomalies, Tolkien should have gone with the "no time change" option, the easiest way to correct the problems. But he left the time differential discussion in place! Sam still notices a shift, Aragorn, Legolas and Frodo still discuss this shift with him, and even the count of days in appendix B shows that the company was in Lorien for 30 days of external time, while Sam thinks no more than 3 - 6 days were spent there.
There is an inconsistency here!
JRRT seems NOT to have finally chosen a single, all encompassing scheme for use in LotR. As I read the texts (not the "Time in Lorien Note," but the actual chapter texts of ToI, and then the text of LotR "The Great River") I find that what Tolkien left in place is inconsistent with the finer details of his "Note on Time."
The "closest" scheme from the "Note on Time" seems to be the one written into ToI originally and gives us some ratio (1:6; 1:10; 1:20; 1:30) of variable time flows in Lorien and the external world. I think JRRT got himself so confused with the internal inconsistencies of his various schemes that he finally left the whole mess to the interpretational guiles of his readers. The easy way out of this inconsistency, is to assume that time is not an external, objectifiable element of reality in Middle-earth, to assume that time passes however one wants it to pass at the whim of Galadriel's "promiscuous" magic. This, however, violates Tolkien's own sense of physics. When he discusses "magic" he always subsumes it into a set of rules that work by/ through scientifically logical processes. This happens in all the cases that I know of -- all except this troublesome matter of Time in Lorien.
Under intense pressure from his publishers to just finish the LotR and get it out, JRRT did not have, I think, enough time himself to fully work out just what he wanted to do with Lorien regarding its peculiar Time. The final, published, 1954-55 text of LotR, in my interpretation, still presents us with a variable time flow scheme, albeit, an inconsistent one. Perhaps, given the time, JRRT would have given us a final, revised chapter here with a more consistent Time scheme?
********
The Sea Bell, as I recall (I'll check this!) was first penned in 1938 and may originally have had little to do with Middle-earth as it was developed in the later LotR. At some time in the late 1950s, after LotR's publication, but before 1962 when the poem was finally published, JRRT adapted the Sea Bell for use as a "hobbit written poem." He then attributed it to Frodo, and in a pencilled scrawl atop the early manuscript he re-titled it "Frodo's Dream." Apparently he thought the ideas it expressed concerning the nature of Faerie were not so inconsistent with his post LotR conception of Valinor that he could include it in The Tolkien Reader as a valid expression of what would happen should a mortal from Middle-earth ever get into Aman.
********
RE: Fanuidhol -- "But, I still don't think you can conclude that Vilya and Elrond are less powerful than Galadriel and Nenya. Perhaps it is a natural tendency for Elven enclaves to have 'slowed Time', and Elrond has to reverse this tendency so his house may not be 'perilous' to visiting mortals."
This is another possibility, but I would like to see some hint from Tolkien himself that this situation is what he had in mind. Can we find any citation to support this?
********
Time anomalies in Mirkwood's Elven Realm: I know of no statement from Hobbit, Dwarves, Elves, Men or Wizards regarding time in Thranduil's kingdom. Anybody else run across any?
********
RE: Time References -- Here, Fanuidhol, I meant time references that specifically deal with perceived anomalies, not a more general mention of time itself. I was looking for any characters who might have commented that time in Rivendell just seems somehow peculiar, especially out of synch-phase with time in rest of Middle-earth. Other than Bilbo's, metaphorical comment (as I see it) on a sort of timeless quality to Elrond's house, I don't know of any real discussion that touches this point.
Fanuidhol -- "I think a better comparison would be using the choice and count of those words and phrases spoken in each realm by mortals only. This might be an indicator of the effects of Time in each place."
Yes! This would be a good project! Do the ways time is mentioned in Rivendell allow us to find a valid pattern of time anomaly in Rivendell, and is this pattern a deliberate JRRT device, and how does a Rivendell time pattern compare with that found in Lorien?
GREAT STUFF, Fan!!!
|
|
|
Post by Desi Baggins on Jan 18, 2005 12:30:15 GMT -6
The whole thing of time does seem to be a bit messed up, another one of those "I wish JRRT was still hear to ask" kind of thing.
What if this whole thing is not really about time but more about energy. Maybe Nenya emits a rejuvinating type power over Lorien...Maybe while there the Fellowship only laid to rest 3-6 times so it felt to Sam like no more than 3 - 6 days were spent there. But they were there for the whole month just without needing to sleep every night. Though I am not sure how this theory would fit any mention of the sky descriptions that are in that chapter...
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Jan 19, 2005 2:55:52 GMT -6
RE: Desi -- "The whole thing of time does seem to be a bit messed up, another one of those 'I wish JRRT was still hear to ask' kind of thing."
Desi: You got that right! We do need JRRT himself to clear this up, and if, as I suspect, he was himself confused as to just how time would work in Lorien, he might only shrug his shoulders at us and reach for a mug of ale...
Time Schemes in the "Note on Time."
I think we are up to seven "schemes," now that I re-read this material and the note itself:
I. "Treason of Isengard," p. 367 "The first time-scheme..." no difference in Lorien and External times.
II. ToI p. 367 "But at this point, it seems, the idea of the disparity of time entered..." = Lorien is "Timeless" spend a year in Lorien and you come out the same moment you entered (like the Narnia time shift).
III ToI p. 367-68 "Another scheme ('II')... alters the days of the calendar but retains the idea of Lorien being "timeless."
IV ToI p. 368 "At the foot of the page carrying scheme II my father wrote: 'Does Time cease at Lorien or go on faster?'..." which is complicated by JRRT introducing the opposite language to drive his point home: " 'The Power of the Lady was upon us. Slow for us there might time have passed, while the world hastened...'" Here we get into the sematics of 'time slowing down' in order for its passage 'to be sped up,' LOL, but it still works out as time moves faster in the external world, I think!
V ToI bottom of page 368 "Another chronology of far greater elaboration..." This one, Chris tells us, was a revision, in detail, that harks back to the idea that Lorien was "timeless."
VI ToI top of page 369 "Lastly, another later scheme of dates begins: '"They spend what seems many days in Lorien, but it is about the same time and date when they leave.[Added: In fact, one day later, time moving about 20 times slower (20 days = 1).]' "
As noted above, this scheme seems muddled, and may refer to two separate notions, conflated by Christopher Tolkien -- one which features time moving faster in Lorien, while the other reads 'slower.'
VII ToI p. 369 "Why have any difference of time?"
Then, the actual time sequences used in the texts of ToI "The Great River," and the same chapter in LotR, have their own time sequences that do not seem to specifically follow any of seven schemes laid out in the "Note on Time," though some version of VI seems closest. I suppose these two versions would give us time schemes VIII and XI?
_________________
RE: Desi -- "What if this whole thing is not really about time but more about energy. Maybe Nenya emits a rejuvinating type power over Lorien... Maybe while there the Fellowship only laid to rest 3-6 times so it felt to Sam like no more than 3 - 6 days were spent there. But they were there for the whole month just without needing to sleep every night. Though I am not sure how this theory would fit any mention of the sky descriptions that are in that chapter... "
Hmmm. That is an interesting, and quite valid take on the topic. However, I cannot find any Tolkien notes that suggest he was thinking along the lines of an energy field that allowed the mortals to recuperate and rest at a different time rate than would be normal for them. But your hypothesis does allow one to view time as a matter of personal perception, I think. Sam "thinks" three to six days have gone by, when, in reality 30 have done so.
If, Tolkien decided to go with the time scheme VII (no difference between time in Lorien and the exterior world) then your idea would work quite well. The problem I have, in this regard, is that Tolkien never tells us which of the seven schemes from the "Note on Time in Lorien," he finally decided to use. When we look at the actual text found in "The Great River" chapters, in both ToI and LotR (where they remain largely the same) they seem closest, in my opinion, to time scheme VI in the "Note," where there is a time difference between Lorien and the external, mortal lands.
I have ordered the V. Flieger book that Magpie suggested, it should arrive soon, and it may have some helpful material in it -- or, she may be just as confused as we are!
Thanks, Desi! You've got a good head on your shoulders, nice trading ideas with you!
|
|
|
Post by Fanuidhol on Jan 19, 2005 17:31:38 GMT -6
Andorinha wrote on 1/16: "Rivendell also acts as a general meeting place for all the kindly disposed races of Middle-earth. Dwarves and Men pass through its boundries century after century without commenting that they had to "re-set their clocks" each time they left. Aragorn lived there for years, as did many of his ancestors, with no apparent displacement in his/ their Numenorean life span(s). So I guess I just always assumed that Elrond was not as powerful as Galadriel, and his ring Vilya was not as potent as her Nenya. Elrond could not appreciably hold back, retard, or alter the flow of time. So, in Rivendell, I think, a day spent within the effective borders of this place was just the same as a day spent outside. But for Lorien, three to six days inside the ambit of Nenya's power-zone equalled a full month of external, mortal-land time." Boldface - my emphasis. I wrote alternate theories on 1/16 and 1/17 respectively: "What if the Elven Rings, which one purpose was to preserve, could allow Time to be subjective to the individual? For instance, what if Bilbo's Time is "frozen" (a method of preservation) because he is remaining in Rivendell "indefinitely". The others' Time, since they are passing through, isn't even "refrigerated" in Rivendell. If this theory is true, then Elrond using Vilya could still be as powerful as Galadriel using Nenya." "You may be right that Bilbo's comment concerning Time in Rivendell might be one of perception rather than physical. If physical things remain unchanged and you watch the extremely slow aging Elves , it may seem like time is standing still. But, I still don't think you can conclude that Vilya and Elrond are less powerful than Galadriel and Nenya. Perhaps it is a natural tendency for Elven enclaves to have "slowed Time", and Elrond has to reverse this tendency so his house may not be "perilous" to visiting mortals." On 1/18 Andorinha replied with a question: This is another possibility, but I would like to see some hint from Tolkien himself that this situation is what he had in mind. Can we find any citation to support this? Yes, I do have a citation that may support either possibility or neither one. But, more importantly it may change your outlook and assumption that Vilya is weaker than Nenya. RotK, "Grey Havens": "Elrond wore a mantle of grey...and upon his finger was...Vilya, mightest of the Three." Andorinha wrote on 1/18: "RE: Time References -- Here, Fanuidhol, I meant time references that specifically deal with perceived anomalies, not a more general mention of time itself. I was looking for any characters who might have commented that time in Rivendell just seems somehow peculiar, especially out of synch-phase with time in rest of Middle-earth. Other than Bilbo's, metaphorical comment (as I see it) on a sort of timeless quality to Elrond's house, I don't know of any real discussion that touches this point." I did understand the context of "time related remarks". I moved into a different line of thinking, because I think looking at time related remarks (my connotation) may help show how time is felt in each place. I haven't had the time to sit and concentrate on the appropriate sequences, yet. Desi: I like your theory. If the "energy" was absorbed at different rates by different species, then the seasonal changes in Lorien would be easier to explain. Thanks, Fan
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Jan 20, 2005 2:51:21 GMT -6
Fanuidhol:
1.Vilya was the "mightiest," but Nenya was the most "powerful!" Just for fun, let's open a new topic for Ring Lore, as this may deserve a full treatment of its own.
2. RE: Fanuidhol -- "I wrote alternate theories on 1/16 and 1/17 respectively: "What if the Elven Rings, which one purpose was to preserve, could allow Time to be subjective to the individual? For instance, what if Bilbo's Time is 'frozen' (a method of preservation) because he is remaining in Rivendell 'indefinitely'. The others' Time, since they are passing through, isn't even 'refrigerated' in Rivendell. If this theory is true, then Elrond using Vilya could still be as powerful as Galadriel using Nenya."
My emphasis
I think that if Tolkien had finalized option VII in his treatment of time, then, as I read your statement here, it would be very close to Desi's, only you are proposing a "time alteration" for Rivendell as well as Lorien, based on the possibility that Elrond's ring, Vilya, is close in power-stature, effective abilities to Galadriel's ring, and he should be able to twist time as well as she. Have I got that right? I can be rather dull-witted at times, so correct me if I've blown it here!
If I follow your drift, there are two problems for my acceptance of your thesis:
1. I am not convinced Elrond had as much power, stature, ability as Galadriel, nor am I convinced his ring was the"mightiest" of the three.
2. I am not convinced Tolkien is using a time scheme VII mode for the Elven realms in ME. In fact, I'm fairly certain (still open to being convinced otherwise) he used time scheme VI, but used it inconsistently.
I think I see in Desi's statement (probably putting a meaning on it she did not intend!) a systematic "subjectivity" used as a healing mechanism for all who enter Lorien. You stay in Lorien for as long as you need, and are back on your road in time to make all your connections. In this case, I would think the entire company would have had the same experience: they would all have felt that they stayed 3 or 6 days in Lorien. In LotR's "The Great River," no one contradicts Sam's count, or provides an alternative count, do they?
Quite frankly, Fanuidhol, I did not know how to deal with your statement, which led me (probably erroneously) to think that you meant that time moved totally differently for EVERYONE who was in Lorien. So, Sam would think 3 to 6 days had passed, while Legolas might swear they had been there 17 days, but Merry would claim he had counted the passage of 234 days, while Aragorn/ Frodo would feel that they were still in Lorien, and in some way never left it (see Frodo's encounter with Cerin Amroth, p. 455, PB FotR) because it was absolutely timeless. Gimli would grumble that he could only remember two days, his first meeting with Galadriel, and the day she gave him three hairs from her head. Boromir, ever uneasy at being in Lorien would counter that he could not get out of there fast enough, so he remembers only 15 torturous minutes before he got the Fellowship to bolt from that sorcerous wood... LOL!
3. RE: Fanuidhol -- "But, I still don't think you can conclude that Vilya and Elrond are less powerful than Galadriel and Nenya. Perhaps it is a natural tendency for Elven enclaves to have 'slowed Time', and Elrond has to reverse this tendency so his house may not be "perilous" to visiting mortals." and "es, I do have a citation that may support either possibility or neither one. But, more importantly it may change your outlook and assumption that Vilya is weaker than Nenya. RotK, "Grey Havens": 'Elrond wore a mantle of grey...and upon his finger was...Vilya, mightest of the Three.'
emphasis mine
See Ring Lore posting.
4. RE: Fanuidhol -- "I did understand the context of "time related remarks". I moved into a different line of thinking, because I think looking at time related remarks (my connotation) may help show how time is felt in each place. I haven't had the time to sit and concentrate on the appropriate sequences, yet. "
No problem!
I'll pick up now on the other topic page, probably a ring discussion would best fit under "Things?"
Thanks for your patience, Fan!
|
|