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Post by Stormrider on Apr 22, 2007 18:31:49 GMT -6
Andorinha:
The link to the picture of the death of Hervor doesn't work. I would like to see it.
The rest of this information is very interesting. I am glad that JRRT made Éowyn more fair that Hervor.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 23, 2007 0:27:06 GMT -6
Thanks for the "heads-up" on the picture of Hervor's Death, Stormrider! Hmmm, it still works for me, don't know why. Try Wikipedia, "Hervarar saga" in their search function. Originally I got there through a Google search for the Hervarar saga. The picture, enlargeable, is about 1/5th of the way down the first page. They say it is in the public domain, so if you still can't pick it up, maybe I can download it here? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 23, 2007 5:50:00 GMT -6
That link worked! The first one took me to definitions about IMAGES! When I used your link, it didn't pick up the rest of the link after the colon!
Under the enlarged picture, it mentions parts of this Saga are in the Poetic Edda. That is one story I have never read along with the Kalvala (or however it is spelled).
Anyway, the picture does look very much like a scene from Battle of the Pelennor Fields when they find Éowyn after she (and Merry) destroys the Witchking.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 23, 2007 10:50:18 GMT -6
Great, glad the general link is functioning, Stormrider! Wikipedia also has a short bit about the artist Peter Nicolai Arbo that includes about a dozen other enlargeable paintings depicting his Norse historical and mythological themes. Apparently Arbo's work was used to illustrate a good number of the Nordic theme books that JRRT would have read. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Nicolai_Arbo
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Post by Andorinha on May 5, 2007 18:27:04 GMT -6
Stormrider has brought up some intriguing questions and observations on the "Nazgul" thread that might be dealt with here as well -- especially as the background material for a comparison/ contrast between the shield maidens Hervor and Éowyn is listed above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ cited from Creatures of Middle-earth, Stormrider -- Re: Nazgûl « Reply #13 on Apr 29, 2007, 7:41am »
"Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul."
"Again it leaped into the air,and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw. Still she did not blanch: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise." (Return of the King, chpt 6, hb version, p. 116)
This is an excellent quote that should go into the Éowyn discussion thread! Look how strong she is (like Hervor) and yet fair and dainty (not manly like Hervor). Éowyn fulfils her promise and duty to protect Théoden. What she did was out of love and honor. It sounds like Hervor just wanted to fight and kill for adventure and excitement.
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I think I agree with you here, Stormrider, my own interpretation is that the Hervor saga is less "civilized/ refined" than JRRT's Éowyn version. Hervor, in the original 12th century saga is indeed much more "manlike" in her motivations than Éowyn in that the same love of battle, and the same "fey mood" can enthuse Hervor that we find in Éomer:
"Then suddenly he [Éomer] beheld his sister Éowyn as she lay, and he knew her. He stood a moment as a man who is pierced in the midst of a cry by an arrow through the heart; and then his face went a deathly white and a cold fury rose in him, so that all speech failed him for a while. A fey mood took him.... Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: 'Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world's ending!' " (RotK, p. 119)
I recall that Éomer was a proud fellow, almost willing to slay Gimli for what he thought was the Dwarf's insolence at their first meeting. Hervor, I think, kills her first giant precisely out of such "manly"egotism, thinking that the giant has offered her an insult, she is willing to reply with deadly force (and does!). Hervor could have let the Hunnish horde go by, but, partly to help her people elsewhere, and partly out of lust for battle, she leaves her fortress to initiate a hopless charge against vastly superior numbers, not caring if she lives or dies, so long as her death may be both useful and (especially!) heroic.
Éowyn seems not to be going out of her way to find trouble, nor does she seem quite so eager to defend her pride as Hervor is, nonetheless she can rise to the same heights of ferocious self-sacrifice as both Hervor and Éomer. Perhaps Hervor's greater acquaintance with men and their ways in battle (she did pose as a male and did lead war parties for many years) meant that she would have learned the "man's" way of war more thoroughly, including the sense of out-raged pride that so often leads to deadly conflict between overly-competitive males?
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 14, 2018 9:11:28 GMT -6
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 14, 2018 17:15:19 GMT -6
Yes, been watching The Vikings television series and it is about 50-50 women who fight hand-to-hand on the battle fields. They were some tough gals! Interesting to see the skeleton examination by scientists confirmed that.
I went back and read this thread. Great points and observations by everyone. Thanks for bringing this up again Andy.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 25, 2018 10:04:38 GMT -6
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 25, 2018 13:32:30 GMT -6
Kool -- now they will have to re-test all the viking graves...
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 26, 2018 16:28:41 GMT -6
Oh no! That could be quite a few graves. But it seems that scientists and historians have already reached that conclusion before this skeleton was found. The Viking TV show has been on for 8 years already--so at least the producers thought so!
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