|
Post by Stormrider on Mar 11, 2008 5:56:42 GMT -6
Well, Frodo is offering up the Ring to those who would initially wish to destroy it. They have given him reason to believe that is what they would do.
In the case of Galadriel, Frodo believes that she has allowed them into Lothlorien because she wished to protect the Fellowship and its mission to destroy the Ring. She tells him that he has brought a great evil into her land. Although Galadriel may have truly wished it to be destroyed, she still had the inkling of a desire to keep it for herself and admits that. She even knows that it would take hold of her and make her an evil ruler.
Notice that Frodo does not offer it to Boromir because he definately wants to use the Ring to defend Gondor and destroy Sauron. He is not as powerful as Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn but he is bigger, tougher, stronger than Frodo.
Another thought: Was Frodo's offering of the Ring to others an effort of the Ring to become stronger by going to another Istari or powerful Elf? It does not really make sense to me that It would want to do that but the idea popped into my head.
I thought we had found passages and proof in LOTR that the Ring wanted to return to Sauron. I thought in the Silmarillion it stated that Sauron poured himself into the Ring. Didn't we post all this somewhere on this or the the archive forum? Where's the search button?
|
|
|
Post by fimbrethil on Mar 11, 2008 6:31:25 GMT -6
Previously: Andorinha: a hero must be self-sacrificing. Again, this seems to be a late addition to the concept of heroics. I'm trying to figure out just when this criterion crept into the picture, probably a Victorian ideal that bled over into a common European, USA value system, very useful in times of war? Fimbrethil: (3.) Ummm, no. This is an ancient idea, and is core to the Christian story. I won't say that Christians invented the idea of the self-sacrificing hero, but I will claim that wherever Christianity has shaped a culture this idea has become part of it. "Greater love hath no man than that he give his life for his friends..." etc. Andorinha: Excellent work, especially #3 needs to be emphasized and expanded, if you have the time. You may be correct in seeing an early alteration in heroic concepts, but I'm trying to think of examples outside the actual Biblical pages. I think even in the Christian medieval kingdoms, military success, and economic success are the paramount goals, even during the supposedly "altruistic" Crusades. The hero is not the brave "defender" who loses, so much as the bold winner? Most of us know and reFriend William the Conqueror, but far fewer of us can recount the fate of Constantine XI. Oh, this will take some work. Early thoughts: William Wallace (Think Braveheart) While he may have wanted to be a hero of the classic sense you are describing, he is admired by the Scots in his failure - because he persisted in the face of a superior enemy, despite the cost to himself. He sacrificed himself to the larger ideal of Scottish freedom. The Arthurian legends. I read Mallory years ago, and only have a fuzzy memory, but I think the notion of noble self-sacrifice was part of the grail quest. Definitely Lancelot was only a hero so long as he resisted his desire for Guinevere - again, self-sacrifice of a sort. Joan of Arc - or for that matter all the stories of all the martyrs. Tolkien was probably raised on these. I'm trying to focus on stories as they were told before the 19th century - not just our later retelling of stories that happened before. I'll admit it's hard. I'm racking my brains for a Shakespearean example - anybody got one? Certainly the St. Cripsin speech is all about getting glory, not self-sacrifice...
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Mar 11, 2008 9:47:14 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "I thought we had found passages and proof in LOTR that the Ring wanted to return to Sauron. I thought in the Silmarillion it stated that Sauron poured himself into the Ring. Didn't we post all this somewhere on this or the the archive forum? Where's the search button?"
You know, I think you must be right, I can almost recall the wording of some of the quotes, it really feels familiar. Maybe on the old MSN boards?I mean, I just FEEL so sure that I'm right on that point (Ring being integrally tied to Sauron), it can't be all my morning megalomania, can it? Sigh, but then Fimbrethil argues so convincingly, I just get confused. Well, only hard-fast quotes will save the bacon, so I'll pounce on the search buttons as well!
RE Stormrider's: "Another thought: Was Frodo's offering of the Ring to others an effort of the Ring to become stronger by going to another Istari or powerful Elf? It does not really make sense to me that It would want to do that but the idea popped into my head."
That's a thought, just free-associating here from your premise -- if the Three potential Bearers all had "goodie" Rings of their own, would there be an additive or subtractive alteration in the One Ring's power? Would Nenya be constantly trying to undo the One Ring's control over Galadriel? But I recall that the One was supposed to trump and control the Three, so maybe they would be "slaved" to its controlling power? Certainly Sauron wanted to take the Three, would he have been able to actually use them? I think he thought so. Certainly the stronger the Bearer, the more he/ she could immediately wield the full power of the Ring, even Aragorn (according to Gandalf) would have to tame it and use it for a while before he could effectively handle/ channel its power. But maybe Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf could have fully used it at once?
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Mar 11, 2008 10:04:52 GMT -6
RE Fimbrethil: "Oh, this will take some work."
Yeah, do we also get into the realm of "hypocrisy" here? In US history it is taught that the North and South needed heroes of a certain type to help cement the sections back together. A statue of Grant in Montgomery Alabama, or Sherman in Atlanta would not do the trick. So, quite deliberately a "cult" of Christopher Columbus was created, a hero for the entire nation (even if he was a Catholic!) and statues of Chris went up in almost every city north and south. But the Columbus portrayed in these times was a very unrealistic portrayal, those of his characteristics deemed of value for 19th/ 20th century society (persistence, vision, leadership, business enterprise) were all over stressed, while any flaws the man had were vastly downplayed. Columbus BECAME a nationalistic, American hero at the cost of the truth. I am wondering here if the same applies to nationalistic rallying point heroes like Wallace, Joan of Arc? If we could see their actual motives, and compare those with the uses others later assigned them... But then, maybe the concept hero is the valid object we are looking for any way, as a sort of embodiment of popular fancies at a particular time. The French needed an altruistic, self-sacrificing heroine/ hero, and they legitimately re-interpreted Joan as an expression of that that model?
LOL, it does get hard to define "heroics" and then find suitable examples...
Shakespeare, hmm, influenced by the Machiavellian tenor of his times, MacBeth etc, look very non-heroic, even the noble republican Brutus, has a power-grab side to his character, but he may be an example of semi-altruism? Of course, he was sure that the Romans would all accept his deed (killing Caesar), never thought it would come down to an act of self-sacrifice? Maybe I'm being unfairly over-critical here? The Courtly Romances of French tradition may be an excellent place to go looking for genuinely medieval "idealistic" hero types with altruism and self-sacrifice components, but then would need a corrective lense to view how closely such types ever were reproduced in reality? But they would be good evidence of the potential mind set of the people of those times, maybe telling us something about how much altruism and self-sacrifice they were expecting from their heroes?
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Sept 10, 2022 8:05:41 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Sept 11, 2022 9:09:43 GMT -6
Thanks for the addition here, Stormy! I had forgotten this thread...
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Sept 11, 2022 13:03:38 GMT -6
Yes, so many topics of discussion here! I always like Merry and Pippin and this paper was good to read. Interesting to relive how the two hobbits grew into heroes.
|
|