Mirkwood Forest

[Stormrider]

I would like to know more about Mirkwood.

How came the Elves to this woods? Was it always dark and mysterious? How did the Elves deal with the spiders?

Why would Elves choose a place like this? Did they make it happier and more joyful and less dark and mysterious than the part we read about in The Hobbit?

What was it like in the southern area where Sauron had resided for a while? Did he and his evil minions venture into the North where the Elves dwelt?

How was Northern Mirkwood different than the Southern part? Or weren't they any different?

Oh...and was Mirkwood known as something else in the First and Second Ages? What was it like then?

[Greenleaf]

A nice topic you started here, Storm! And I spent a pleasant evening doing a little research, which bore some fruit, although not as specific information as I'd like, I guess because I don't have too many sources. Anyway, I'll try to make some sort of summary.

Mirkwood was originally called Greenwood the Great. There dwelt the Silvan Elves, who at first lived at both sides of the River Anduin. They were descendants of the Nandor (those who gave up the Great Journey to Aman east of the Misty Mountains), some Avari (those who refused to make the Great Journey) and some Eldar (those who undertook the Great Journey). I couldn't find excactly when they moved into Greenwood. Before Thranduil, their king was his father Oropher, a Sindarin Elf. I don't know how he became their king but I found an extract from UT, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn:

"Compared with the Elves of Doriath, his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin [High-elven] Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it."

The Silvan Elves took part in the War of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age. Oropher was slain there and the Silvan Elves suffered many losses, and Thranduil led the survivors back to Mirkwood (or Greenwood?) I think its name had not changed yet, because that happened when "a shadow [that] fell on the forest, so that it became darkened and its new name was Mirkwood." LotR, Prologue.

When Sauron rose again he took refuge in southern Mirkwood and built the fortress of Dol Guldur. In 1100, Third Age, the Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discovered that an evil power had made a stronghold at Dol Guldur and they thought it was one of the Nazgûl. About one thousand years later the power of Dol Guldur began to grow. The Wise feared it might be Sauron taking shape again. I suppose it was around that time that Greenwood became Mirkwood, when the shadow fell upon the forest and the Elves "retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground." (Again from UT, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn).

In 2063 Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and Sauron retreated and hid in the East. Then began the Watchful Peace, which ended in 2460 when Sauron returned with increased strength to Dol Guldur. In 2850 Gandalf entered Dol Guldur again and discovered that its master was indeed Sauron, who was gathering all the Rings and seeking for the One. A year later there was a meeting of the White Council and Gandalf urged them to attack Dol Guldur but Saruman overruled him. Saruman already desired to find the One Ring for himself and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time. In 2939 Saruman discovered that Sauron's servants were searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields where Isildur had been slain. However, he didn't say anything to the Council. In 2941 the White Council met again and this time Saruman agreed to an attack on Dol Guldur, because now he wanted to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron, who had already made his plans, abandoned Dol Guldur. The Battle of the Five Armies took place this same year as well. A year later Sauron returned in secret to Mordor and in 2951 he declared himself openly and began the rebuilding of Barad-dûr. (The dates are from LotR, Appendix B).

About the spiders I don't think there's anything in LotR, although I admit I didn't look in the Hobbit. But with Sauron established in the southern part of the forest, I suppose a lot of evil creatures would be drawn in Mirkwood. Or perhaps he brought them there himself.

In LotR Appendix B, I also found another relevant passage about what happened after the fall of Sauron. I'll put it here, although it's a bit long.

"After the fall of the Dark Tower and the passing of Sauron the Shadow was lifted from the hearts of all who opposed him, but fear and despair fell upon his servants and allies. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took all the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon."

Well, this turned out to be something like a history of Mirkwood. I hope I haven't written anything inaccurate; I tried hard to avoid it. But if someone spots any mistakes, please correct me!

It would be interesting to know if someone else has any more information.

Greenleaf

[Lanhail]

Very nicely done, Greenleaf! I have little to add to your research.
I messed up using the quote button. But anyway, Greenleaf wrote:
"About the spiders I don't think there's anything in LotR, although I admit I didn't look in the Hobbit. But with Sauron established in the southern part of the forest, I suppose a lot of evil creatures would be drawn in Mirkwood. Or perhaps he brought them there himself."

In the chapter, Shelob's Lair of TTT, it states: "Far and wide her [Shelob's] broods...spread from glen to glen, from Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastness of Mirkwood." The spiders of Mirkwood were Shelob's children, and probably drawn there by Sauron, whether intentionally or just by the simple attraction to the evil there (like a magnet), I don't know.
Lanhail

[Stormrider]

Greenleaf and Lanhail:

Thank you for your research on this topic! I appreciate that very much! I do remember the name of Greenwood the Great now that you mention it! I like the new name, Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves, that Thranduil and Celeborn gave it.

From reading this, I am assuming that the Northern portion of Mirkwood was much nicer even than the part of the forest that Bilbo and the Dwarfs travelled through (which was very dreary and creepy!). Although the darkness from the South was spreading northward all the time while Sauron resided there.

So then after Sauron was evicted, I would guess that the Elves would have worked toward making it nice again. Perhaps they were able to kill or drive off the Spiders, too, unless they fled with Sauron!

I wonder if there is anything in any of my many books that tells of how Thranduil's people kept themselves safe from Sauron and the Spiders while they were there.

I will have to do some research on my own, however, I won't get to it for the next five days since I will be on vacation without a pc for most of that time. I'll try to grab a few books to take along with me and see what I can find, if I get a chance!

In the meantime, if anyone else has dug up some information, please don't hesitate to add it here!

[Aeleorn]

Hey Greenleaf, thanks for the info! You've put a lot of work in your research and I really apreciate it.

And thank you too, Stormrider!

I know I don't participate a lot in the discussions, but I do try to keep up with all the new posts. I always learn quite a lot from the forums.

Love, Aeleorn

[Greenleaf]

Good addition, Lanhail! I had forgotten about Shelob's offspring. And to think I re-read LotR for the third time only five months ago...

Today I also checked the Encyclopaedia of Arda and there it states that the name Mirkwood was first used in about 1050, Third Age.

I also found an article by Michael Martinez. It's about the Wood-elves but there's some info about Mirkwood too. Here's the link:

www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/39352

[Fangorn]

I once wrote a poem for TR about this very subject. Here it is again:

FEAST FOR THE CLEANSING OF THE GREENWOOD

Beachwood boughs with tips aflame.
By lamp lit paths they slowly came.
Laden carts rolled along, and everywhere there was a song

Oh Greenwood great, my woodland realm.
Crown of berries, red leaves his helm,
Elvenking on chair of carven wood, elves about, grey of hood.

Vintage wine of Dorwinion Gardens.
Living stone halls, great hearths to warm in.
Leave ponies at the stable, for you are called to Thranduil's table.

How now as Mirkwood were thee called?
Dol Guldur's shadow, orcs, black squirrels,
Insect eyes in the night, enchanted streams, spider fright.

Yet Great Eye could not prevail.
Eyrn Lasgalen was named, and cleansed was vale.
Come feast my friends, when you are able.
Your place is safe at Thranduil's table.

Glor 11/02

[Greenleaf]

Wonderful poem, Fangorn. So full of emotion!

[Andorinha]

I have searched through the TR fora here and I cannot find out whether or not I have already posted the following material. It is from another Tolkien Group (not the parent MSN Group for this current version of TR) back in 2004. The group I originally wrote this for has since gone under, disappeared...

So, if I have not broached this question here on TR, it may be appropriate on this format, if I already posted it (and I cannot find it!) we can always erase this version!

"Has anyone noticed just what seems "wrong" (distinctly different) with Mirkwood as it is portrayed in The Hobbit, when we compare this forest with those we find in The Lord of the Rings?"

(Does this sound familiar?)

[Stormrider]

Andorinha: I don't think you have brought this question up before.

Let's see...Tom Bombadil's Old Forest seems rather strange and eerie especially regarding Old Man Willow. Fangorn Forest seems strange, too, but we know the Ents and Hurons live there. If the Entwives or other Ents or Hurons are in The Old Forest, that would explain some of the strangeness. The Ents are protective of their realm and wish to protect it.

Lothlórien is silvery, golden, and beautiful but it seems rather alone and aloof--cut off from the rest of the world. The Elves won't allow anyone in their forest that they don't know or trust. Because Legolas and Aragorn were with the Fellowship, they were admitted even though a Dwarf was among them.

Mirkwood just seems much more evil and scary than the other forests of Lord of the Rings. It is like there is a spell on it. It must be because Sauron and his Nazgûl were residing in Dol Goldur. It seems more like a forest from Grimms Fairy Tales.

[Andorinha]

Excellent, Stormrider! I think you've got the same sort of feelings for this question that I had several years ago -- and I think it has to do with the way the Forests of LoTR can interact with the human, wizard, hobbit, elf, dwarf, orc, etc. kindreds. There are forests, and then there are forests in Tolkien's Middle-earth and the difference I'm seeing depends on when JRRT was writing.

1932 - 1938: "They walked in single file. The entrance to the path was like a sort of arch leading into a gloomy tunnel made by two great trees that leant together, too old and strangled with ivy and hung with lichen to bear more than a few blackened leaves. ... Soon the light at the gate was like a little bright hole far behind, and the quiet was so deep that their feet seemed to thump along while all the trees leaned over them and listened." (Chpt VIII - "Spiders and Flies," The Hobbit p. 151, 1966 ed.)

Comparing all of the many sub-episodes that make up this "Mirkwood" chapter of The Hobbit with the various forest-related events in the LOTR -- where our protagonists interact most closely with the woods -- it occurs to me that there is indeed a fundamental difference between Bilbo's experiences, and those that befell Frodo and gang some 77 years later.

In all his dealings with the forests, Bilbo never once met a "thinking," let alone a "walking" tree!

The quote from The Hobbit seems to be a sort of teaser for those of us who have already read LOTR: "while all the trees leaned over and listened." Kind of gets you ready for Trees that can actually hear, and make sense of Hobbit-Dwarf talk, and that "leaning" sort of prepares you for Trees that can up-root themselves and follow Bilbo's company, intent on mischief if they like. But as you read further in The Hobbit, it never happens! For all the comparative similarities between the Middle-earths of Bilbo and Frodo, it is peculiar that the forests Bilbo wanders through, are "only" trees; but Frodo has to contend with the shifting woods of the Old Forest, and the very humanlike mind and malice of Old Man Willow. Also in the LOTR, though Frodo is not present, Merry and Pippin actually run into some VERY mobile vegetation, The Huorns and The Ents!

But, in the 1937 Hobbit, this great mechanism, talking trees, walking trees is simply absent; and it is such a wonderful idea that I am trying to find out just why there are no Ents, no spiteful Willows, no "branch-dropping" trees with spirits of malice to amaze and/ or threaten Bilbo and the Dwarves in their epic journey?

When did the idea of "walking-talking" trees first occur in JRRT's mind, and where does it first show up in his notebooks?

[Stormrider]

I don't think the Ents and even the Huorns wished to share a forest with Sauron and the Nazgûl. Treebeard and Company were very effective against Saruman at Isengaard in LOTR; but even though Sauron was building up his strength and resources in Dol-guldur, it seems that he put some kind of spell over Mirkwood that may have been too much for Ents and Huorns to deal with.

Bilbo and the Dwarves were warned by Beorn not to drink the water and by Gandalf to stay on the path. Bombur fell in the black river stream and fell under a spell where he did nothing but sleep and dream for days.

Perhaps there had been Ents and Hurons living in Greenwood once but Sauron settled in, cast his spell over it, and it became known as Mirkwood. These Ents and Huorns may have drank from such a stream as Bombur had and they may have become more "tree-ish". Other Ents may have seen this happen and they moved to other forests so that wouldn't happen to them.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part and I don't have any passage or quote from anywhere to support my theory. I will see if I can find anything in my plethora of HOME books!

[Andorinha]

"What did Tolkien know, and when did he know it!?"

Are we -- with the text of The Hobbit -- in a Middle-earth that supports sentient/ sapient/ volitional trees? Are there any Ents, and Old Man Willows in this world, this early version of JRRT's Middle-earth? Do trees "act" like animals/ humans in his 1937 "prequel" narrative? Does Bilbo ever offer us any tales of ANY woods (and The Old Forest by his own Shire should certainly be within his purview!) that contain such wandering trees? I do know of any such tales.

Where JRRT might have used the word "Ent" in The Hobbit (and he never does!) concerns the Stone Giants of chapter IV, ( see "Over Hill and Under Hill," p.68). But here, Tolkien is using the term giant (giant = ent in Old English) as a human-shaped, animal of flesh, a Fairy Tale style "Giant." Some of these "human-like" giants come out to play in a fierce mountain storm, tossing great boulders at one another; and Gandalf mentions (chpt VI, p. 105) that some of the Stone Giants can be friendly enough, and one of them may help him block up the secret entryway where the Goblins had captured the Dwarves and Mr. Baggins. Later, in the first drafts of LotR, written during World War II, Treebeard was originally outlined as one of these Stone Giants, a human-formed creature with no particular "treeish nature" or connection to the vegetable realm. But sometime between 1943 and 1954,Tolkien changed the Stone Giant concept into the Tree-Ent scheme. (see History of LotR vol. 1: The Return of the Shadow, pp 363 - 383 and 384).

So, it seems that The Hobbit was written well before JRRT ever had the idea that trees in a fantasy novel might be allowed to walk, talk, plan, scheme, and interfere with the passage of Elf, Dwarf, Man, Orc or Hobbit. There is no hint in The Hobbit of the explanatory "enabling legislation" that JRRT uses later to inform us as to how, why, and when Trees were given voices and the power of swift, up-rooted movement.*

In 1937, the various drafts of what would become the 1977 Silmarillion, did have a Goddess of Vegetation/ Life, Yavanna, a Valier of great power who was "married" to the Vala Aule -- but there were no Huorns, no Tree-Ents, no "spirits of the Olvar" who would later (after 1950?) be sent to dwell within certain trees and quicken them into volitional movement. This last section of the 1977 Silmarillion, (see Silmarillion, chpt. 2, "Of Aule and Yavanna," pp 45 and 46) is quite a late revision, meant to explain the existence of the Tree-Ents and the Huorns after they were conceived in the 1943 - 1950 period.

So, I think we can demonstrate that The Hobbit actually pre-dates some of the "back story" mythology found in the final version of The Silmarillion. The Hobbit was published before JRRT had the idea of walking-talking trees, and he had only decided to use The Hobbit as a base for his later stories about hobbits after he was told his poetry and histories were not suitable for publication. So, around 1939-40, Tolkien used The Hobbit as the introductory volume for the 1940s - 1950s Lotr, and it is only in LotR, so far as I know, that we find the very first scenes of sapient / mobile trees in all of Tolkien's writing. Even in the early versions of the Silmarillion tales, no tree ever walks -- does it?

I believe then, before Lotr, a Tolkien forest, is simply a forest -- but after 1954 there are trees in some Middle-earth forests that ain't quite "treeish" -- they walk and talk!

In conclusion, I think the entire concept of sapient, gracile vegetation is foreign to The Hobbit as it was originally written (1928 - 1937). I suppose we can, with a slight stretch of our imaginations, "backread" from the LotR, and with eyes half-closed, place such lively-spirited trees into the 1937 narrative -- but this is entirely "after-the-fact," anachronistic. In The Hobbit, I believe, the trees are merely trees, and the forests are simply woods! The application of "Occam's Razor" tells me that the most likely eventuality is the most simple: Tolkien, in his 1937 Hobbit, did not yet have any concept of walking-talking trees!
_______________________________

*Olvar and Kelvar: see The Silmarillion, p 43, paperback ed., pp 45-46 hardback. It would be very nice if we had a specific date for the composition of this last scene in which the Valier Yavana prefigures the creation of the Ents, though they are not given that name yet. I suspect this section of the The Silmarillion, which stands as a suspiciously short and "special use" chapter, is a post 1938 inclusion, revision, back-written into the mythology to explain the post 1940 invention of the Ents. Fanuidhol once posted that this part of the 1977 Silmarillion concerning the Ents as walking/ thinking Tree-like beings, was indeed a late addition, being slipped into the backstory myth sometime in the early 1950's, just a few years before the publication of LotR in 1954/ 55.

**Did Tolkien ever see the splendid film fantasy "The Wizard of Oz," (1937 or 1939, I believe)? I think it would come after he had finished The Hobbit in its near final form for circulation in 1935 among his friends. Did its talking, apple-tossing trees act as a trigger for his later 1940s invention of the highly mobile vegetations of the Shire's Old Forest, and Fangorn's Ents?

[Andorinha]

RE: Stormrider: "Perhaps there had been Ents and Hurons living in Greenwood once but Sauron settled in, cast his spell over it, and it became known as Mirkwood. These Ents and Huorns may have drank from such a stream as Bombur had and they may have become more "tree-ish". Other Ents may have seen this happen and they moved to other forests so that wouldn't happen to them."

Wow, Stormrider, you have just brought up several extremely good points in your latest post here that will require me to think a bit harder and see what I can come up with as well. The whole concept of identifying The Necromamcer with Sauron is another of those interesting points that I have never been able to fully understand. Certainly by 1943 to 1954, JRRT combines the Necromancer with his Silmarillion character Sauron, but was this his original 1928-1937 intention?

I also wonder how much power Morgoth (or later Sauron) might have had over vegetation? Could they corrupt, enslave or bend such creatures to their own Evil wills? Are there examples in the various Silmarillion tales where "wild forests" were under the control of Morgoth or Sauron? Were there ever any Evil Ents or Huorns willing or forced to do the bidding of Morgoth or Sauron?

Were there Ents in Greenwood the Great, later driven out as it became Mirkwood? Another grand question!

I'll see what I can find in my own "plethora" of Tolkien sources too!

[Stormrider]

Tolkien wrote The Hobbit since he had already made it up and had told the tale to his children as a bedtime story. I think it was just to entertain them.

Once it was published and people loved it, he was asked to write more about hobbits. This was when he started connecting the LOTR story with The Hobbit and The Silmarillion.

I don't think he had intended the Necromancer to be Sauron when he wrote The Hobbit. I don't think he intended to have more human-like trees in the story either. However, as you mentioned, The Wizard of Oz might have triggered the idea of the Ents and Huorns!

Does anyone have the very first Hobbit publication or any before he started writing LOTR? Was Mirkwood as mysterious as the versions I've read (those published after 1968)? I wonder if Tolkien, having been inspired by human trees from other writings, may have made Mirkwood more gloomy and frightening because of Sauron's (after he linked him to Morgoth from his Silmarillion) presence there.

Did Mirkwood always have insectile eyes looking at Bilbo and Company in the dark? Was the stream always black and sleep inducing? Was it always thick and dense? Were there always spiders in it? Could Tolkien have made it more evil in later editions after he began to tie in LOTR and the Sil?

Also did Gandalf keep going off on his own for other reasons in The Hobbit in the first editions because it just made Bilbo and the Dwarfs more vulnerable without the aid of a wizard? Was his meeting with the White Council added later?

I think the spiders may have been in The Hobbit from the beginning and Tolkien added more spiders to The Silmarillion (the spider who helped Morgoth destroy the Two Trees--I can't remember her name) and Shelob in LOTR.