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Post by McDLT on Jul 21, 2004 14:59:29 GMT -6
I know that it was Elvish in nature, but where exactly did it come from and how did it end up with the Barrow-wight? Curious.
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Post by Hilary on Jul 21, 2004 16:19:18 GMT -6
I think we can do a little detective work to answer this. When Merry awakens after the incident in the Barrow-downs, he says: (FotR, Bk. I, Ch. VIII). A few paragraphs later, Tom takes daggers from the Barrow-wight's hoard for the Hobbits: (FotR, Bk. I, Ch. VIII). Encyclopedia of Arda has this to say regarding the Barrows: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ *And, lastly, Appendix A, Part I, Section iii of The Lord of the Rings tells us: (my emphasis bold). So, it seems we can presume that the weapons belonged to Men of Arnor/Cardolan. *Added 7/23/04
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 30, 2004 17:14:03 GMT -6
Did Merry's sword from the Men of Arnor/Cardolan help Éowyn defeat the Witchking? If so, what was it about this sword that helped in this endeavor? Did the Men or Arnor have a special way of forging their weapons to add extra strength to them?
Or was there nothing really special about it--just that Merry struck the Witchking in his heal (or was it just his lower leg?) and just that act distracted the Witchking enough for Éowyn to pick up her sword, position herself, and strike?
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Post by Greenleaf on Jul 31, 2004 3:30:49 GMT -6
The swords from the Barrow-downs might have some sort of magic in them. When Aragorn found them after the Uruk-hai had taken Merry and Pippin with them, he said: “Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.” (Departure of Boromir, TTT)
And when Aragorn gave them back to Merry and Pippin in Isengard, Merry said about the swords: “…Uglúk took them form us… At first I thought he was going to stab me, but he threw the things away as if they burned him.” (Flotsam and Jetsam, TTT)
And in The Battle of the Pelennor Fileds, RotK, we read: “So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.”<br> So maybe we could assume that the Witchking was slain thanks to the combined strikes of both Merry and Éowyn. Perhaps the strike of Merry’s spell-wound sword was the decisive factor that enabled Éowyn to bring down the Witchking.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 31, 2004 7:13:58 GMT -6
So perhaps without Merry's help with his sword, Éowyn might not have been successful in bring the Witchking down! He was very powerful and I like to think that the combination of both their efforts was what destroyed him.
I was glad that PJ showed Merry getting in his stab in the ROTK movie. I would have liked to have seen that scene acted out as it was written by JRRT. Although the movie depiction was awesome, it still had lost some of the impact of the book.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 9, 2005 23:36:21 GMT -6
The movie's handling of that scene is one of the few (very few) problems I had with the film. Not so much in the way it was depicted but the fact that the impact is lost. Right after the Witch-King's death, the film cuts away to Legolas bringing down an oliphaunt. Although not as important a victory as the one against the Witch-King, it's flashier and the audience in the theatre cheered after this. That always kind of bugged me. I wanted to say to them "Oh c'mon! Eowyn just destroyed the second-in-command of the entire villain army! Where's her applause?!" In fact, the second time I saw the film, I started clapping for Eowyn's win, just to prompt a little more reaction from the rest of the theatre (geeky thing to do I know, but I always loved Eowyn ).
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 10, 2005 7:18:28 GMT -6
Fredegar:
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the lack of emphasis on Éowyn and Merry's teamwork in destroying the Witchking. Merry and Éowyn were mortally wounded from having their blades pierce the Witchking's body and PJ does not make that clear in the movie at all. As a matter of fact, Aragorn only seems to be healing her broken arm and not her whole body. Then everyone left Merry out on the battle field and only Pippin searched for him. Merry never went to the Houses of Healing in the movie and he needed the athelas to heal his hurts, too.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 30, 2021 3:58:37 GMT -6
Something nags me about Merry's sword -- found in a Long Barrow of Cardolan-Arnorian manufacture... Wondering if this sword represents a real world British Bronze Age implement? Tolkien should have been familiar with history/ prehistory texts that used the scheme of Old Stone Age, Neolithic Age, Copper-Bronze Age, Iron Age. So were the four Barrow-blades of Merry, Sam, Pippin and Frodo meant by Tolkien to have been made of bronze? Going to be looking into this.
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Post by fanuidhol on Jan 31, 2021 6:36:20 GMT -6
Trying to wait patiently, but two words have been trying desperately to come out --
Sutton Hoo
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 31, 2021 7:33:50 GMT -6
There is a show coming out soon, THE DIG, on Netflix, that Zauber is eagerly awaiting. Her faithful puppers is named Basil Brown after the man who discovered Sutton Hoo. Looks like it aired Jan. 29th. I think I'll look for it today. www.netflix.com/title/81167887
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 31, 2021 17:45:28 GMT -6
I watched The Dig today. It was pretty good. Here is the Sutton Hoo exhibit at the British Museum: SUTTON HOO EXHIBIT
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 6, 2021 15:18:24 GMT -6
The real life Sutton Hoo material is fascinating in its own right, and deserves a discussion of its own, but under the Rohirrim topics, I should think. Despite the featuring of a "viking-style" ship-burial, Sutton Hoo is an Anglo-Saxon grave, that dates well into the Iron Age. I have not seen "The Dig," yet, only read some critical comments on the character interpretations of the main actors, especially the roles assigned to Edith Pretty, and Peggy Piggot. One question here -- did Tolkien follow this 1939 dig with any interest, and did Sutton Hoo and its spectacular finds influence his LOTR writings?
But, returning to the Barrow-Blades that Tom Bombadil secured for the four hobbits, I am trying to associate Tolkien's descriptions of these "daggers," their find spot (an ancient tumulus barrow identified as the tomb of the Last Prince of Cardolan) with the real life remains of the barrow cults of Europe and their examples in England. These barrows come into fashion with the Bronze Age cultures, probably some few centuries after the initial construction of Stonehenge. One would expect these hobbit swords to be relics that one should discover in the context of a funeral barrow -- in this situation, one would expect these blades to be made of some sort of alloy of bronze. Does Tolkien tell us the metallic composition of these blades? Is Tolkien trying to follow the real life sequence of the Ages found in Europe (and therefore ancient England)? Or does he ignore real life historical sequences in favor of making up his own sequences?
Working on these questions just now -- back later (and soon, I hope!)...
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 7, 2021 9:24:01 GMT -6
Are you checking the Home series to see how this episode evolved? And I want to direct you to this - if you haven't seen it. Mythlore ArticleI have not read it, but it seems right up this alley. If I were Tolkien, would I ignore the Sutton Hoo find? I think not.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 7, 2021 17:36:11 GMT -6
Good reminder on the HOME volumes and The Letters! RE Tolkien and Sutton Hoo: "One archaeological find that cannot have failed to attract Tolkien's close attention (though there is no report of his ever having visited the site) is the famous Anglo-Saxon cemetery at Sutton Hoo in East Anglia, which came to light just as Tolkien began to write The Lord ofthe Rings. The Sutton Hoo ship burial in Mound 1, called "the most richly furnished burial chamber ever discovered in British soil" (Carver 14) was excavated in 1938-39. Journal publications appeared from 1939 onward. Tolkien makes no mention of Sutton Hoo in his published letters, but his awareness of ship burial is attested in Sauron Defeated (389, 400, 411) and Shippey (301) states that Tolkien made frequent reference to the ship- burial sites of England and Scandinavia." cf dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1225&context=mythloreNow, does Tolkien ever use Sutton Hoo material in his post 1939 works as a source of authentic detail? Shippey (see above) may have something useful on this. If the people and culture of Rohan are (in Tolkien's mind) an expression of Anglo-Saxon culture, perhaps JRRT did not find Sutton Hoo and the ship burial (despite their Anglo-Saxon nature) appropriate for an inland, horse people? On the other hand, ship burials just might be appropriate for a Numenorean based culture, with its maritime heritage. But even with Arnor/ Gondor we have the barrows for the north, and the stone cut mausoleums in Minas Tirith for the southern Dunedain, without any nautical connections that I can recall. Once again, JRRT may not have made explicit use of the Sutton Hoo finds because they were irrelevant for the largely "land based" cultures of both Rohan and Arnor/ Gondor? ___________________________________________________ Back soon to Merry's sword!
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 7, 2021 17:54:54 GMT -6
However, aren't the mounds of Sutton Hoo similar to the burial mounds of the King's of Rohan? Granted Rohan didn't have ships, but the treasures of Sutton Hoo seem very Rohirric. The helmet, for instance.
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