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Post by Andorinha on Feb 22, 2021 11:10:38 GMT -6
Part I: Were the Barrow-blades made of bronze?
Proving Merry's sword to be a bronze blade has become a more convoluted undertaking than I had supposed... I was hoping to be able to demonstrate the Bronze Age nature of Tolkien's "Last Prince of Cardolan's" barrow, where the four hobbits are temporarily detained, and eventually freed with their new weapons, the ancient barrow-blades. Tolkien does give us enough descriptive information on this Cardolan, tumulus burial to just about rule out its being based on an Anglo-Saxon period, Iron Age grave (definitely not Sutton Hoo then), but that's about all. After reviewing British Burial Mounds in several real-life archaeology sources, it begins to look more likely that JRRT based his Cardolan burial on tomb forms that generally predate even the use of bronze.
Tolkien's barrow has an opening, a portal, a doorway that faces east. As Frodo wakes up in the tomb he begins gradually to see through the darkness, finding the forms of his three companions ranged alongside his own body. "... they were in a kind of passage which behind them turned a corner..." (FotR, "Fog on the Barrow-Downs," p. 138). The key word here is "passage." One entire set of British Barrows are defined as being "Passage Barrows," a mound that has prominent doorway, usually opening to the east, and a long corridor/ passage leading into the heart of the burial mound. Within the tomb, there may be several corners to turn, openings into side chambers where grave goods and the actual bodies of the dead were placed. Unfortunately for my initial hypothesis, these Passage Barrows, or Long Barrows are almost always confined to a truly ancient age, 3500 to 3000 BCE, falling within the British Neolithic Period.
Apparently, by the Bronze Age, property had become concentrated within the hands of an elite few, who were given largely individualized burials that were meant to be sealed over and left alone throughout eternity. This individual-use grave form holds true for rich persons and poor, and these individual burials continued into the Iron Age, Anglo-Saxon times as well. But, in the Neolithic, individual wealth was not much recognized as society's base, and a more egalitarian/ tribal system prevailed in which burials were made in a communal grave, with a doorway being necessary so that as younger people/ later deaths occurred they could be added to the tomb. As Tolkien's Cardolan tomb has a door, through which the Barrow Wights might come and go, and a passage where hobbits might be ritually murdered, they can only be in a Neolithic Period grave. Hence, if Tolkien were being true to this model of a Passage/ Long Barrow, the blades Bombadil parceled out to the hobbits would have properly been lanceolete, flint/ chert/ quartz knives, not metallic at all.
Tolkien does tell us that his barrow-blades include (at least in their sheaths) some kind of metallic substance, and so must probably be either bronze, or iron, or even steel -- definitely not neolithic stone. Now I need to figure out why Tolkien chose to present us with a Stone Age Long Barrow, even though he obviously has the Cardolan Last Prince living in a definite metal-using culture... More later.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 22, 2021 11:26:35 GMT -6
Very interesting information. Thank you for your research.
Perhaps JRRT just plain liked the Neolithic passage barrow idea for the Barrow Downs and whether that period used stone weapons didn't matter to his own story which needed to have metal blades so he combined the two ideas. Heck, it's fiction based on past historical ideas, so why not mesh them together to suit your own story!
... but please continue your research! It would be interesting if you can find something to bring it all together other than my simple explanation.
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 22, 2021 13:52:12 GMT -6
I agree with Stormy here, that Tolkien meshed real history with his fiction. Isn't LotR "supposed" to be in some long lost history of this world?
Now, I am interested in the burial mounds of the Kings of Rohan, and the crypts of the Gondorian Kings. Heck for that matter, all death rites in LotR. Thinking of Boromir...
Did dwarves or elves teach men how to fashion these blades?
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 22, 2021 13:58:31 GMT -6
Yes, Stormy, and Fan: Tolkien was writing fantasy-fiction, and certainly could have used any elements of the real world, or any elements of his own imagination, in any combination he wished. But, recall from his Letters, that JRRT wanted to do for England what Elias Lönnrot did for Finnland with his Kalevala -- that is, create a national mythos based on the prehistory and history of their respective nations. "Do not laugh! But once upon a time ... I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend ... which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country." (The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 131, p. 144) From this initial impulse, Tolkien was binding himself to an already existent pre-history and history from and about England's real-life events. When this came to his people of Rohan, he did his best to make for them a fictional culture based strongly upon that of the Iron Age Saxons, to the degree that Stormy and I were able to read Rohirric inscriptions by simply treating them as if they were actual, real-life, Anglo-Saxon linguistic expressions.
So, why, with his expressed concern for using real-life historical cultures in his fiction, why did JRRT get his barrows all mixed up? LOL -- in the end, I think my own researches will lead me to one variant or another of Stormy's "simple" explanation:
1. JRRT simply did not know enough British archaeology to be able to distinguish the various barrow types, one from another.
2 JRRT was writing for a wider public that might not know or care about "proper" archeological sequences, and therefore Tolkien used the most impressive of the barrows of England as his model, knowing that the general reader would at least have some idea from journals, newspapers, and films as to what a "barrow" should look like.
3. JRRT was forced by his own story line to use the passage barrow from the neolithic era, because it afforded him the one thing his hobbit tales required: a usable entrance way, so that the four could be taken below ground, and the rest of the barrow's story, including the five blades they found there, could be further developed.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 22, 2021 14:13:01 GMT -6
And the LOTRO game's depiction of the barrows seems to fit your research of the passageway barrows, don't you think?
It would be cool to go into the burial mounds of the Rohirrim in our game, too.
Can we go into those of Gondor? I'm wracking my brains to remember if I ever found or entered them.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 22, 2021 18:42:35 GMT -6
Fan: "Did dwarves or elves teach men how to fashion these blades?"
Hmmm, Telchar, a dwarvish smith, seems to have worked for both the Elves and possibly the Numenoreans. Angrist, "Iron Cleaver," the First Age dagger that cut one of the silmarils from Morgoth's crown, was supposedly made by Telchar. Narsil/ Anduril was originally "wrought in the depths of time," (First Age?) by Telchar. So, was Narsil first made by a dwarf for the elves, and then much later in the Second or Third Age it was given to the mortal-man ancestors of Elendil? If dwarves could forge for the elves, why not for the Numenoreans and their Arnorean descendants? Or, did the elves directly teach the Numenorean/ Arnoreans some advanced metal crafting? I think it most likely that Cardolan (mankind) smiths, borrowing from elven lore and/ or dwarvish smithcraft, then made the barrow-blades around 1400 TA. I think Tolkien's descriptions of the barrow-blades strongly suggests they were man-made, during the war of the Cardolan Princes against the Nazgul Lord of Angmar: Bombadil should know who made the barrow-blades: "Then he told them (the four hobbits) that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: ... but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the land of Angmar." (FotR, "Fog on the Barrow-Downs," p. 142) Also, I think I remember that when Pippin lays his sword on Denethor's lap, the Steward of Gondor recognizes it -- yes, I found it: "'Whence came this? said Denethor. 'Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?' 'It came out of the mounds that lie on the borders of my country,' said Pippin." (RotK, "Minas Tirith." p, 739)
So, barrow-blades, man-made but with the skills and advanced crafting these Arnorean men had inherited from (probably) both the elves and the dwarves?
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 22, 2021 18:59:21 GMT -6
Stormy, yes the LOTRO barrows certainly are mainly Passage or Long Barrow forms in origin, but vastly more intricate and ramified to multiple levels and complex branching tunnels...
I can't recall the tombs of the Rohan kings being enterable by our players, but in Annuminas, weren't the tombs of the Arnorean Kings open for our characters? Though these were, mostly above ground mausoleums rather than some form of Barrow-Mound. I do not recall any quest that gave us access to the royal tombs of Minas Tirith or Osgiliath (again, more above ground mausoleums than barrows anyway).
I'll add some of the sources I have been using for tomb forms, archaeological designations, dating, functions, and cultural affinities -- also some pictures...
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 23, 2021 7:34:34 GMT -6
The Numenoreans themselves were Men but they also were half Elf way back in the beginning. Wasn't it Elrond's brother (I can't remember his name and my books are locked away til Spring-- Elros?) who chose to become human rather than Elven as his brother had? So there is some Elven qualities to these Numenoreans that could give them an edge (over other men) in weapon crafing along with that training from Elven and Dwarven weapon crafters.
It seems over the years that this weapon crafting ability declined in that special "magical touch" feature that the Barrow blades had.
As soon as I get the chance, I'll send Sandy or Twiz over to Mins Tirith and look around for the tombs. Right, Rohan burial tombs were not open. I don't remember if they even had a door image on them. I'll send Dazzlebee over to look since she's in her Rohan house now. I think these may look more like the Sutton Hoo mounds.
And keep investigating! Pictures would be great or links to pictures.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 23, 2021 11:50:20 GMT -6
RE Stormy's: "The Numenoreans themselves were Men but they also were half Elf way back in the beginning."
An interesting side light here, just how many Numenoreans were there at any given time, and how many of them ever had any Elvish ancestry? You start out with one progenitor who is only half an elf himself, Elros Tar Minyatur, and after just 6 generations the amount of Elven ancestry would be 128th, if I've got the math right. By the time we get through the Second Age, and Numenor sinks beneath the waves, some 3400 years have elapsed, about 16 generations if we grant an average life span to the Edain Numenoreans of 210 years -- not much Elven blood left by that time unless the Numenoreans practiced the Egyptian Pharonic custom of marrying their own siblings. We do know that the Elves came freely to Numeror's island from the West, but did any of them ever mate with the Numenoreans to replenish the Elven blood among these Men? The Third Age Princes of Dol Amroth apparently had a separate strain of Elvish ancestry among them that had nothing to do with the Elros line, as Legolas recognized an Elvish strain in the prince who ruled the coast lands at the time of Sauron's ending -- were there any more Elf-Man unions JRRT did not mention?
These visiting Elves certainly brought all sorts of cultural goodies to the island kingdom, medicinal plants, craft knowledge, ship-building techniques, the seven palantirs, probably swords like Narsil. But, did having even a speck of Elvish blood in one's make-up confer special skill at crafting weapons? Since, I doubt many "regular" Numenoreans ever had any Elvish blood, we would have to have members of the Numenorean Royal line acting as craftsmen, as smiths to get an Elvish benefit into their labors. Certainly the high elf Feanor was a superlative craftsman, so it could be that the Royals in Numenor also acted as craftsmen?
By the time I think it likely that the Barrow-blades were forged in Cardolan, say around 1400 Third Age, there would be even less of a trace of Elvish ancestry left in the northern Dunedain, and I think I recall that the Royal bloodlines in Rhudaur had become extinct, and the "Last Prince" of Cardolan (died 1409 TA) was the last direct descendant of Elendil in that area of Arnor. It is an intriguing picture in my mind, that this Last Prince might still have a smidgeon of Elvish blood, and that he himself might have forged the five blades found in his own barrow by the hobbits and Bombadil...
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 23, 2021 12:49:46 GMT -6
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 23, 2021 13:02:23 GMT -6
Yes, I see your point that the Elvish/human exceptional traits would have diminished greatly by the time Numenor sunk and they made their way to Middle Earth.
And then would they have married an Elf after arriving? They could have but would they have? I'm not so sure many Elves would want to give up their Elvishness and become human. Which makes me wonder, would they really have to give up being an Elf? Why did Arwin Undomeil have to?
The weapon making might intrigue the high born Numenorean line so they may have dabbled in it. Or would they have gone at it whole heartly and mastered it? Who knows. But from reading Unfinished Tales, the higher ups seemed snooty to me! But I'm sure some where down to earth.
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 23, 2021 13:23:03 GMT -6
Thank you for the links, Andy. I especially liked the Littleton one. To be able to see inside, even if slightly was really what I had hoped for. I poked around the site a little, and can't help but, offer this - Grave Goods. A number of people were asked to tell what they would bring with them to the grave, and from the few I read the answers are interesting. Kinda goes along with what we wrote here toward the beginning of your research.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 23, 2021 14:07:09 GMT -6
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 24, 2021 11:08:59 GMT -6
RE Fan's: "Now, I am interested in the burial mounds of the Kings of Rohan, and the crypts of the Gondorian Kings. Heck for that matter, all death rites in LotR. Thinking of Boromir..." From the Mythlore source you gave us an article on general "Funeral Customs in Tolkien's Fiction:" dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2748&context=mythlore
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Post by fanuidhol on Feb 24, 2021 12:11:52 GMT -6
I did a google search on the subject of death rites and the first page was filled with credible .edu sources. Now to read them and post them in a separate thread, so as to not highjack yours. Thanks, Andy!
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