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Post by fobria on Apr 12, 2021 13:51:04 GMT -6
How believable might it be that Eöl taught some of the Dwarves of Belegost or Nogrod this craft, given his friendly relations with them? Maybe not all the meteorite was used up to make Anglachel and Anguirel? And then some of this skill and knowhow (if not also original meteorite) was retained by the Dwarves still living in the Ered Luin until Arnor became a power in the 3rd Age? Arnor borders some of the Ered Luin, and there would have (initially and presumably) been friendly relations, trade and commerce between the Dwarves and the Men.
Alternatively, Anguirel came to be in Gondolin's possession, and some of the knowhow of working that metal was preserved by some of the smiths who escaped (they would've been quite fascinated by it when Maeglin brought it). This knowledge much later on was used to forge other blades (or maybe Anguirel itself was reforged into these smaller blades), which made it into Arnor's and then eventually Cardolan's possession. Elves under Gil-galad (who inherited crown from Turgon) then also had friendly relations with Arnor at first, and some trade, commerce and exchange of knowledge.
Seems possible to speculate on any number of scenarios where this could happen. The wiki doesn't say definitively that Galvorn (or the knowledge of smithing it) was completely lost after the first age.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 12, 2021 20:20:33 GMT -6
That could be, Fobria. The Dwarves were extraordinary craftsmen especially in metals and jewels. Also more meteorites could have fallen to Middle Earth during those ages. But Eol seemed prideful and might not have wished to share his secrets even if he was on friendly terms with them. But who knows, he might have had a really great Dwarf friend that he respected enough to share his skill in crafting armour and weapons with the black meteorites. Maybe he trusted this Dwarf enough to show him/her how to make galvorn.
I am sure smiths would have been very interested in Anguirel if they had gotten their hands on it. There surely would have been some smiths that would have cracked the secrets in how to reforge other weapons (the small daggers) from it or even how to make the same metal (or something close).
Speculating is more than likely all that we will be able to do. Unless Andy, with his magical research skills, can find something!
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 13, 2021 10:20:35 GMT -6
Great ideas fobria and Stormy! Yes, the Elves (after Eol) had access to the meteoric swords, maybe even some of the left over meteorite itself. Whether Eol taught the Dwarves and/ or Elven smiths how to use the meteroric ore -- the Elven smiths, at any rate, showed, with the forging of Gurthang, that they knew how to work and rework this outer-space material.*
Hmmm, another thing to look at is the black chain mail armor given to Pippin by Denethor -- though various "oils" have been used in the real life past to impart a blue, blue-black, or jet-black coating to regular medieval armors made of steel.
I was trying also to see if the meteoric ores might have been used in this galvorn, but cannot find any Tolkien source that connects the two, so it looks like galvorn was Eol's "worldly" invention, and after this one suit of armor, I can find no more mention of galvorn used by Dwarves or Elves.
*The Elven smiths, after Eol's death knew enough about his meteoric-steel to successfully re-forge the Black sword Anglachel to create Túrin's new sword Gurthang, a black blade that had some sort of in-dwelling spirit that even allowed the sword to talk to Túrin just before it took this hero's life. Though, as I recall, Tolkien was himself at this point introducing elements and tropes from a foreign source, the Finland epic of Kullervo as found in The Kalevala. Maybe, as he further developed his own stories the Black Sword with an in-dwelling spirit became ever more foreign to his own narrative, and so both the meteor-swords and the black-steel galvorn were abandoned, never to be used again in JRRT's Post-Silmarillion Middle-earth?
Still looking...
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 19, 2021 8:47:41 GMT -6
Not much to report: 1) At one point JRRT was calling the barrow blades a "sax," which is a particular type of Saxon dagger usually called a seax. Most of these Iron Age blades have only one edge, and an oblique taper to a point -- not at all "willow-leaf" shaped as JRRT describes Merry's "sword." www.reliks.com/functional-daggers/seax/"Denethor says of Pippin's sword: 'Surely is a sax wrought by our own folk in the North in the deep past?', where RotK has 'blade' and 'kindred'. The word sax (Old English seax, dagger, short sword) was the final choice in the draft after rejection of 'blade', 'knife', and 'dagger'." The War of the Ring, "Minas Tirith," p. 292 From the above Chris Tolkien quote, I get the impression that JRRT was not very sure just what type the blades of his barrow should be, nor was he certain of the identification of the metals of which the blades and their sheath would be made... 2) Pippin's black armor: Probably not Galvorn, a substance not attested to in Middle-earth once we leave Eol behind in the dusts of the First Age. "He [Pippin] had a small hauberk, its rings forged of steel, maybe, yet black as jet; and a high-crowned helm..." RotK, "The Siege of Gondor," p. 789 Alas, even here JRRT leaves us with no final closure, his "maybe" partially casts doubt upon the statement that the rings of the hauberk were made of steel. Maybe they were just good old Gondran steel, painted or oil tinted to a black hue, but maybe the material was not steel at all?
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 19, 2021 21:36:49 GMT -6
Well, gosh durn it! That is frustrating. But I guess there were so many details in the creating and writing of LOTR (and I saw some of JRRT's papers in Milwaukee and we have the Home series, too), that the daggers just slipped thru the cracks!
Perhaps Merry's sword wasn't all that magical (special, unique, had useful qualities, whatever you want to call it) and his stab at the Nazgul's leg was just a plain old distraction, enough to give Eowyn her unmanly jab with her also unspecial sword! Her not being a man was wut mostly caused the Witch King's demise.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 20, 2021 9:57:32 GMT -6
RE Stormy: "Perhaps Merry's sword wasn't all that magical (special, unique, had useful qualities, whatever you want to call it) and his stab at the Nazgul's leg was just a plain old distraction, enough to give Eowyn her unmanly jab with her also unspecial sword! Her not being a man was wut mostly caused the Witch King's demise."
Hmmm, this has been a long, and complex investigation -- it might require a summation, "what we know," "what we can reasonably infer," and "what is left to sheer speculation."
For "what we know," I think JRRT tells us through both plausible inference and direct statement that the barrow-blades are associated with several sorts of "magic." There is the magic involved in their being preserved for almost 1600 years in the tomb without rusting away. There is Bombadil's statement that these blades were forged by the Cardolans who were specifically fighting the "evil king of Carn Dum in the land of Angmar." (FotR, Fog "on the Barrow Downs," p. 142.)
We have to wait until near the end of Tolkien's work to find out specifically just how magically powerful Merry's blade really was when he sticks it into the undead flesh of the High Nazgul:
"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." (RotK, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," p. 826. Emphasis mine)
From this direct statement of the narrator, JRRT himself, I always got the impression that Merry's sword had "magical properties" other man-made blades might not have. It was forged specifically to do great, perhaps even fatal damage to such creatures as the Nazgul. Eowyn's blade had no magical elements or properties that we know of, but its penetration of the Nazgul's skull, just after the shock of Merry's magical blade, was sufficient to finish off that dark creature's "undead" life.
I have always had the feeling that Eowyn was fated to deliver that last, finishing blow to fulfill Glorfindel's ancient prophecy, that not by the hand of man shall the chief Nazgûl fall -- and I think it was the combination of the "not-men," a hobbit and a woman that finally "did in" the former king of Angmar. I grant them both an equal share in the "death" of the Nazgul Lord.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 20, 2021 10:10:11 GMT -6
Okay, Thanks for quoting these passages. I also felt Merry should share in the death of the Witch King. I always liked that concept.
So it is just the fact that JRRT did not tie up the exact metal type and mystical forging process for us. I hope the piercing into the Witch King's leg by Merry's sword/dagger gave him the coldest of chills up and down his body. That would really be distracting.
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Post by fobria on Apr 20, 2021 17:42:11 GMT -6
I haven't read this thread in full, nor do I remember all the relevant references, but might the statement "no other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter", considered on its own, mean just that Merry was the one to actually succeed at hurting the Witch King, whereas all others would have failed? Others wouldn't have had opportunity, or would have been defeated in a direct confrontation, or the Witch King would have fled before he could be hurt etc?
Given the "not though mightier hands had wielded it" part, it seems to suggest that this most bitter wound was not because of any special property of the blade, but because Merry had an opportunity to actually hurt the Witch King that none others had before, and that this was the lucky (or fated) blade to wound him. And then weakened from that wound, Eowyn could deliver the killing blow to his head.
The Witch King may have a wide arsenal of powers but may he be just as vulnerable to being hurt by weapons as any other mortal? With his Black Breath, aura of fear, ability to dissolve weapons that touched him (even by say, a glancing blow) and the poisoning of any one that was able to strike him with such weapons, it would make actually hurting him in any serious way pretty difficult.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 21, 2021 9:31:17 GMT -6
fobria, I was thinking along those lines as well...
We've got several different ways to attempted an understanding here:
1. Merry's sword does the real damage to the Nazgul: "breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
That passage brings to mind a total collapse of the Nazgul into, at least, a paralytic state where he could not command his own body, could not use his muscles, and he would lie helpless on the ground, a lump of Nazgul jelly? Would this state result in his eventual suffocation/ heart failure -- if the loss of muscular control extended to the involuntary muscles as well?
Or would Merry's Barrow-blade have yet further work to do, like a Morgul-blade in reverse would the Cardolan magic gradually, further poison the Nazgul's system until his final dissolution?
On the other hand, could the Nazgul, eventually (in a few seconds or a minute) recover from Merry's blow, regain self-command and go on to wreck his vengeance on both Merry and Eowyn?
2. Eowyn's sword, though not magical, may have been both necessary and in itself sufficient to the Nazgul's "demise." It could have been the actual "death" blow, dispatching a merely hobbit-incapacitated Nazgul?
I don't think we get enough, precise information from JRRT's account to ever really settle such questions...
I like, fobria, your introduction of the term "opportunity" here -- this scene seems "fated" indeed, an opportune moment when all the various "ingredients" are brought together at just the right time -- Merry, sick and dazed but still able to attack the unsuspecting Nazgul from behind, and Eowyn with just one moment to react to the Nazgul's anguish and deliver her final blow... Maybe Eowyn's blade, or any blade would have bitten the Nazgul, maybe even "fatally," if only others in the past had had an opportunity to deliver such a strike. Maybe there were such opportunities?
I remember Aragorn's statement "all blades perish that that pierce that dreadful king." FotR, p. 216). How does Aragorn know this, unless at some time (or times) in the past, someone did actually find an opportunity to stick a blade into that Nazgul? As you suggest, fobria, were these earlier attacks productive of nothing more than flesh wounds? Would Eowyn's sword strike, even into the skull of her foe, have done nothing more than annoy the Nazgul, and of course destroy her own blade? Supposition on my part, assuming I have a feeling for Tolkien's intention here, is that both blows were necessary to achieve the "fated" goal, the removal of the Chief Nazgul.
Which brings up yet one more item to ponder: can the undead die? Did Merry and Eowyn actually kill the Nazgul?
"... A cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of the world." (FotR, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," p. 824 emphasis mine)
Hmmm, this seems ominous, is the Chief Nazgul, greatly diminished, as was Sauron after his Ring was taken, diminished but not utterly destroyed? When Morgoth and Sauron return for the final battle, will the Nazgul reappear with them?
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 21, 2021 11:55:20 GMT -6
Something must have been unique in the forging of Merry's barrow blade if it was made to fight the forces of Angmar. His dagger and other swords, axes, spears, etc made for those wars must have had a special something to them. It could be these weapons did pierce Nazguls and that is how Aragorn new they would perish. And since these may have been wielded by the males from the races that fought against Angmar, that is where the "no man can smight me" theory came from. (Not that females didn't help in the wars) And, of course, that knowledge would have been handed down thru the ages so Aragorn knew about it.
Andy, I like your analysis that Merry's special sword incapacitated the Witch King enough to stun and/or start working something into his system to erode him away. Merry was a Hobbit, but wouldn't he have been considered a "man" by his fellow hobbits and peers? I believe he and Pippin were not tweens and at least had started into Hobbit manhood. So he is not a huMAN, but an adult Hobbit.
However, Fobria's opportunity theory and Merry's being in the right place at the right time is plausible, too. More so if Merry, the Hobbit, is not considered to be a man. (Were Elves considered men or are we just talking RACE of men? Then why couldn't any Elf or Dwarf for that matter have been able to deafeat WK if he had the opportunity?)
Anyway, I am very certain that Eowyn's ordinary sword was needed to complete what Merry's sword had started and being a female that negated the "no man can smite me down" belief. Being female takes out any doubt as to the MAN issue!
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 21, 2021 12:30:45 GMT -6
Uh Oh... this may call for another Topic: were Hobbits part of the classification of Men? LOL, genetics in Middle-earth.
RE Stormy's: "Something must have been unique in the forging of Merry's barrow blade if it was made to fight the forces of Angmar."
Yes, I agree with you here.
RE Stormy's: "Anyway, I am very certain that Eowyn's ordinary sword was needed to complete what Merry's sword had started and being a female that negated the 'no man can smite me down' belief. Being female takes out any doubt as to the MAN issue!"
Yes, that works for me too!
Now here's an interesting twist on JRRT's own understanding of this issue: In his earliest drafts of "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," Merry was not included in this climactic scene; and Eowyn and Theoden cooperate in "killing" the Chief Nazgul by the simple act of slaying the Nazgul's steed. With the fall of his vulture-like mount, the Nazgul himself vanishes leaving behind only his empty cloak on the ground; and the Orcs, Trolls and Men of Harad are in despair and flee the battle. (History of The Lord of The Rings, Part 1, The War of the Ring, pp 365-66)
I do by far prefer his published version in Return of the King, with Merry and Eowyn cooperating in the defeat of the Witch King.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 22, 2021 7:02:19 GMT -6
But but but . . . The Nazgul were all overthrown and washed down the Bruanin by Elrond's frothing horse waves. They were dispersed but not defeated. Why would a fell beast have more of a link to survival than the black horses? I'm glad JRRT changed that to include Merry!
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 22, 2021 9:38:50 GMT -6
Yes, why would the winged-mount of a Nazgul have so close a connection with its Rider that slaying the beast would automatically "slay" the Rider as well? Very peculiar -- I guess JRRT was just brainstorming here, and soon realized that such a situation made no sense...
In my further reading of The Return of the Shadow, I came upon this bit concerning the Barrow-blades. Apparently at one stage of its evolution, back when Frodo was still Bingo, and Strider was still the hobbit Trotter, the Nazgul had a closer connection to these blades. Apparently, in this version, the magical "anti-Nazgul" properties of the blades were very familiar to the Nazgul themselves: "But for that 'short cut' [through the Old Forest] you would not have met old Bombadil, nor had the one kind of sword the Riders fear." ("At Rivendell," p. 213 my emphasis, and note #16 p. 218).
#16 p. 218 -- "An isolated note says: 'What of the sword of the Barrow-wights? Why did the Black Riders fear it? -- because it belonged to Western Men.'"
So, even fairly early in his writing, JRRT had already conceived the Barrows-blades as being of Arnoran make, and specially designed as weapons of great bane against the Nazgul themselves.
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 22, 2021 11:32:59 GMT -6
Yay! Perseverance pays off! Great detective work, Andy! The Nazgul feared those blades!
Sorry, I can't research along with you since I gave no idea where my Home series is.
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Post by fobria on Apr 23, 2021 10:43:46 GMT -6
Is it for sure Sauron will return in the Last Battle? From what I recall, even Melkor's returning isn't explicitly mentioned in the published Silmarillion, though it appears in the HOME. But if Sauron doesn't return, presumably the Nazgul won't. If they're Men, even Men whose lives have been prolonged unnaturally, I'd expect them to leave the circles of Arda upon final death. I'd like to think some of them even found peace and freedom at last. Though non-canonical, I like the depiction of this very thing from the Shadow of War game:
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