Who is Old Man Willow?

[Andorinha]

Just who/ what is Old Man Willow, does he have any connection with Fangorn Forest? Is he some type of Ent, or Huorn? Could he simply be a tree?

[Andorinha]

In my original readings of LOTR, I accepted Old Willow Man as nothing other than a genuine tree, inspirited with some sort of malevolent sentience (at least malevolent to "trespassing" hobbits). It was only later, when I met Treebeard in the Forest of Fangorn, that I started making some tentative connections between OMW and the forms of animated vegetation found in TT, chapters 4 ("Treebeard") and 9 ("Flotsam and Jetsam").

I recall many of us first-time student/ readers discussing whether OMW should be re-defined on the basis of our newly found understanding of the Ents and Huorns. The question soon divided itself into two equally popular camps: OMW was an Ent gone bad vrs OMW was a Huorn, powerful indeed, but just a bad Huorn.

A few people mentioned that the chapters of FotR dealing with aspects of OMW and the Old Forest (FotR, chpts 6, 7 and 8) stood out like sore thumbs, and that they just did not seem to be organically connected to the main narrative. In fact, they might be jettisoned as mere digressions (as such they were treated and rejected from the film version). In this case, they argued that OMW was a unique character and could not validly be compared to or subsumed by the categories of Ent and/ or Huorn.

Any thoughts on this matter? If not, I'll subject this forum to my own nastily verbose speculations (complete with footnotes!) a little later this week...

[Stormrider]

I guess Peter Jackson must have thought that OMW was an Ent or Huorn. Remember his scene where Merry and Pippin wake up after Treebeard set them down at his home? After Merry and Pippin drank the ent draught, they were sucked into a tree and were swallowed up just like in The Old Forest (except wasn't that Frodo and Merry inside OMW). However, I think this was because Tom Bombadill was cut out of the movie, so PJ stuck that scene in the Treebeard scenes just before entmoot.

I remember we discussed OMW on the old forum. After learning more about the Ents and Huorns from the Treebeard chapters, it does seem like OMW had some of their traits.

The Ent and Huorns can move from place to place. I don't think OMW has that ability. I am trying to remember more about some of the trees that Treebeard spoke of. Didn't some of the Ents become treeish and stop having the ability to walk? I need to have some mind jogging here.

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

I had always assumed that Old Man Willow was a Huorn and never questioned it, to be honest. He's a semi-sentient tree that lashes out vengefully against anyone that invades or threatens his forest. Sounds pretty much like a Huorn to me.

It's likely that there are different types of Huorns with different levels of mobility. Some Huorns were Ents that became more treeish and some were trees that became more entish. So it seems that Huorns are not a race or species so much as a classification for any creature in that halfway state. The transformation could have different stages.

Old Man Willow is likely a Huorn that either didn't develop the ability to move around or one that has become so treeish over time that his roots are embedded in the ground.

And yes, as Stormrider pointed out, OMW was not completely omitted from the movie version, just the theatrical release. There's a scene in the Extended Edition that is lifted right from that part of the book, just transposed to Fangorn rather than the Old Forest (Which throws another monkey wrench into things, I suppose. Did OMW just live elsewhere in this version or could he move about after all? Or was that not him at all, just a Huorn with a similar temperment?).

[Andorinha]

OK, I think this brings us to a general consensus that OMW is NOT (most likely) an Ent gone bad, but he could still possibly be one of the wilder Huorns?

Arrggh... So "what" precisely IS a Huorn? How much information does Tolkien give us here, and can we figure out, at least roughly, WHEN JRRT first invented the Huorns? I am thinking it might help if we could determine which came first, Huorn or OMW, and I'm thinking here that OMW had a fairly early existence back in the Tom Bombadil adventure poems -- maybe we can check there to see if the "original" Willow Man had any characteristics that might make his confirmation/ denial of Huorn status more clear?

I was just going through "Two Towers," chpt. 4 "Treebeard," and I cannot find ANY mention of Huorns there (maybe my eyes just missed it?). We do get a good "self-description" of the term Ent by Treebeard -- Entwife, and Enting as well -- but no Huorn? I wonder if this means that at the time of chapter four's ("Treebeard") composition, Tolkien had not yet invented Huorns. I think the first time they are mentioned is way back in TT chpt 9 "Flotsam and Jetsam." How long after chpt 4 was chpt 9 written?

What we do get from "Treebeard" chpt. 4, that might help is the discussion that Ents (no mention of Huorns or even a hint of how they relate to Ents is yet found) can grow treeish, can become sort of dormant and inactively "root" themselves:

" 'The trees and the Ents,' said Treebeard. 'I do not understand all that goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you. Some of us are still true ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish.' " (TT, chpt. 4, hb ver p. 71)

When trees grow entish, some of them will be sweet-tempered, but other can become dangerous, "... bad right through." (TT, p. 71) While he does not yet specify the case, some of these "trees gone entish" may be the root stock of chapter 9's Huorns? Or can Huorns ONLY be produced by Ents going backward and becoming "treeish?" Either way, it seems trees, Huorns, Ents would all be interchangeable stages of development, a process of development that works both ways: Ents going treeish, trees growing Entish. But I get the feeling from chpt 4's discussion of Leaflock-Finglas that some Ents may grow treeish without passing through an intermediate Huorn phase? (TT, p. 78) So I'm still looking for some positive defining characteristics that would allow us to distinguish a tree from a Huorn, and a Huorn from a "true Ent."

How do we define Huorn?

Failing to find a direct "Huorn" discussion in chpt 4, I'm turning now to chpt. 9 TT, "Flotsam and Jetsam." Here Tolkien takes the opportunity of enlightening Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas by using Merry and Pippin as teachers. They try to tell the other Fellowship members just what the Ents are:

" 'Ents,' said Pippin, 'Ents are -- well Ents are all different for one thing. ... He tried a few fumbling words that trailed off into silence." (TT, chpt 9 "Flotsam and Jetsam," p. 167 hb ver.) Apparently, even to JRRT, the matter is still a confusing one! But, finally, on p. 170, we get (I think!) the first use of the term Huorn:

" 'We came down over the last ridge into Nan Curunir, after night had fallen,' Merry continued. 'It was then that I first had the feeling that the Forest itself was moving behind us.' ... 'It was the Huorns, or so the Ents call them in "short language". Treebeard won't say much about them, but I think they are Ents that have become almost like trees, at least to look at.' " (TT, p. 170)

As he further tells the tale, Merry reveals that the basic characteristics of these Huorns includes two primary elements (as I understand the passage -- maybe there are more?): mobility and speech.

1) "... it is difficult to see them moving. But they do. They can move very quickly, if they are angry." (TT, p. 170)

2)"They still have voices, and can speak with the Ents -- that is why they are called Huorns, Treebeard says -- but they have become queer and wild. Dangerous. I should be terrified of meeting them, if there were no true Ents about to look after them." (TT p. 170)

So, what do you all think? Is this a fair representation of the Huorns? Are the two characteristics I'm listing here (mobility and ent-speech) the basic one's we need for trying to see if OMW might be a Huorn, or are there other characteristics in chpt 4 or 9 that need to be included?

[Stormrider]

Andorinha quoted from TT:

1) "... it is difficult to see them moving. But they do. They can move very quickly, if they are angry." (TT, p. 170)

This description always confused me in relation to Huorns. It seems like they are superhero-ish in the fact that they can move so quickly but you can't see them move. Sort of like the woosh of Superman flying from one place to another. But still OMW did not move around any. Or maybe he would have if the hobbits had not gotten close enough to him. Perhaps he would have wooshed over to them sooner or later!

The fact that Merry said he would not want to meet a Huorn without the Ent's sheppherding, sounds like he might be describing OMW. Their temperment seems to be touchy!

But the Hurons can talk, too. I don't remember if OMW did or not. I think he just groaned and creaked. I don't remember him saying anything during the Old Forest chapter.

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

admin said:

But the Hurons can talk, too. I don't remember if OMW did or not. I think he just groaned and creaked. I don't remember him saying anything during the Old Forest chapter.

They can talk to Ents, not necessarily to other races. I assume it's some sort of tree-ish language they're speaking or a form of Entish. OMW's groaning and creaking could very well have been him "talking!"

And as for the Huorns' movement being "difficult to see," I don't interpret that as super-fast superhero type movement. I think Merry meant that their movements could be subtle and almost unnoticeable at times. You might not even realize it was a Huorn and not just a regular tree. Them moving very fast when angry sounds like a separate thought in that dialogue. But that was just my reading of it.

[Stormrider]

Fredegar wrote:

They can talk to Ents, not necessarily to other races. I assume it's some sort of tree-ish language they're speaking or a form of Entish. OMW's groaning and creaking could very well have been him "talking!"

I never thought of that. I am sure you are correct that he was speaking in a language only Ents and Huorns would understand. It makes sense that the creaking and groaning noises would be treeish speech.

Fredegar also said:

And as for the Huorns' movement being "difficult to see," I don't interpret that as super-fast superhero type movement. I think Merry meant that their movements could be subtle and almost unnoticeable at times. You might not even realize it was a Huorn and not just a regular tree. Them moving very fast when angry sounds like a separate thought in that dialogue. But that was just my reading of it.

Hmmmm...Do you mean that a Huorn's movement was difficult to differentiate its movement from the subtle blowing of the wind on a normal tree's leaves and branches more so than an actual stride to another location?

But what confuses me is, the Huorns moved all the way to Isengard (or was it Helm's Deep?) to swallow up the escaping Orcs. How could that not be seen? I think moving from Fangorn Forest to wherever it was would have been noticeable--unless it took place in the dead of night, which I assume it did.

[Andorinha]

Didn't OMW talk to the hobbits? Tell them to put out the fire? Let me look that up...

Hmmm, Sam seems to understand OMW, but maybe he speaks metaphorically? "Sam sat down and scratched his head, and yawned like a cavern. ... and he thought this sudden sleepiness uncanny. 'There's more behind this than sun and warm air,' he muttered to himself. 'I don't like this great big tree. I don't trust it. Hark at it singing about sleep now!" (FotR, hb ver, "The Old Forest," p. 128)

Maybe more certain is Merry's plea for Frodo and Sam to put out the fire they started to scorch OMW into submission: " 'Put it out! Put it out!' cried Merry. 'He'll squeeze me in two, if you don't. He says so!' 'Who? What? shouted Frodo ..." (FotR, p. 129, bold face mine)

From this, I get the feeling OMW could talk plainly enough to communicate easily with Merry and Pippin who were inside the tree, but outside it, Frodo does not seem to be able to hear/ understand the Willow?

This IS interesting! I do not recall anyone in the tale having speech with a Huorn, or even reporting that they ever heard a Huorn talk, so maybe, Huorn talk is "heard" only by the "true ents?" Here OMW is "heard," or at least "understood" by Merry, but just a few feet away, Sam and Frodo (apparently) cannot understand OMW's speech...

Does OMW ever speak "outloud" in the "Adventures of Tom Bombadil?"

Then, when Legolas tries to go deeper into the realm of Fangorn, is it because he "hears" the trees speaking, or is it just because he saw "eyes" among the trees? Drat, can't find that passage now, may even be just after the battle of the Hornburg? Ah,yes, in TT, "The Road to Isengard,"( p. 152 hb ver.) Legolas says, presumably regarding the Huorn forest, not the "true ents:" " 'These are the strangest trees that ever I saw,' he said; ... 'I wish that there were leisure now to walk among them: they have voices, and in time I might come to understand their thought.'"

Apparently, these Huorn voices can be heard by Legolas, even if the language is a foreign one. Or do Elves "intuit" the Huorn voices, not really hear them? LOL!

Do Huorns have eyes? Apparently Legolas, when he see "eyes" in the forest is referring to a pair of "true ents who come walking out of the Huorn forest on p. 154 TT. But I think the "voices" Legolas hears, on p. 152, still refers to just the Huorn trees, not the "true ents?"

So, not fully certain, but it seems OMW has a voice the hobbits inside him can hear and interpret/ understand; the Huorn trees of Fangorn may have audible voices that an Elf's ear picks up, but cannot yet understand/ interpret. Hmmm, was OMW "speaking" telepathically, or was he using the Westron tongue of the hobbits?

[Stormrider]

Good Ol' Andorinha, went and looked up the passages that lazy ol' me didn't get around to doing. Thank you for doing that. I guess I should go look up things that I make suppositions about to back up my words. heh heh heh

Maybe for Merry it was telepathically. Perhaps OMW gave Merry and Pippin a sense of the fire licking the trunk and then squeezed them each time the flames burned him. Maybe that was how he communicated what he would do to them if the flames weren't put out. That would explain why Frodo and Sam didn't hear anything or realize that OMW was speaking...but then again, maybe deep down inside, Merry and Pippin could hear the words.

But wait! I am going to follow Andorinha's technique and look up something in FOTR! OMW has motive for picking on Merry and Pippin when they sat down beside him: Merry says in The Old Forest Chapter of FOTR:

"The Forest is queer. Everything in it is very much more alive, more aware of what is going on, so to speak, than things are in the Shire. And the trees do not like strangers. They watch you. They are usually content merely to watch you, as long as daylight lasts, and don't do much. Occasionally the most unfriendly ones may drop a branch, or stick a root out, or grasp at you with a long trailer. But at night things can be most alarming, or so I am told. I have only once or twice been in here after dark, and then only near the hedge. I thought all the trees were whispering to each other, passing news and plots along in an unintelligible language; and the branches swayed and groped without any wind. They do say the trees do actually move, and can surround strangers and hem them in. In fact long ago they attacked the Hedge: they came and planted themselves right by it, and leaned over it. But the hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a great bonfire in the Forest, and burned all the ground in a long strip east of the Hedge. After that the trees gave up the attack, but they became very unfriendly. There is still a wide bare space not far inside where the bonfire was made.

There are various queer things living deep in the Forest, and on the far side, or at least I have heard so; but I have never seen any of them. But something makes paths. Whenever one comes inside one finds open tracks; but they seem to shift and change from time to time in a queer fashion. Not far from this tunnel there is, or was for a long time, the beginning of quite a broad path leading to the Bonfire Glade, and then on more or less in our direction, east and a little north. That is the path I am going to try and find."

According to Merry's story, the trees do sound very Huorn-like to me...all the trees were whispering in strange unintelligible language, they made subtle movements as if they were striking out, they surround strangers, attacked the Hedge, paths shift and change.

So OMW has a grudge and is angry enough to snap M&P inside his trunk. The paths moving and changing could be other Huorns tricking strangers into getting lost with their subtle movements to close up those paths.

Tom Bombadil even told the hobbits that they must not go outside after dark, didn't he? I think that Tom might be a sheppard of the trees in The Old Forest. Wasn't he a friend of Treebeard's? Somewhere I have the idea that they know each other (or was that just something we made up in our Adv. in ME RP story on the old forum?) Looks like I need to do some more research in the books.

However, for Legolas, he is a WOOD elf so I could see how he would have the capability of hearing or sensing the words in the creekings and groanings!

[Andorinha]

Ah, thanks Stormrider, for refreshing that bit on The Old Forest: "I thought all the trees were whispering to each other, passing news and plots along in an unintelligible language;" seems the hobbits at least have the impression of something like voices talking, but cannot understand the language! With OMW, at least those inside him, can, I think, both hear and understand him. And, it sure sounds to me like the Old Forest trees (some of them) can move about, even if the exact means of their propulsion is obscure (do they have forked trunks like legs, or do they just drift along on rootlets?). Seems both these characteristics match with those of the Huorns: speech, but in an incomprehensible language; and movement through some shadowy means that never quite seems to be grasped by those "humans" who witness it.

I was hoping the 1934 account of Old Man Willow in the poem "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" might have some clues to OMW's nature, but I found very little. The Willow in 1934 could still "sing" its victims into unwary sleep, could still crack itself open and draw victims inside itself. From the verses, it seemed clear (could be meant as metaphor?) that OMW actually spoke, to Tom -- but, again as in the case of FotR with Merry, this speech occurred while Tom was trapped inside: " 'Ha, Tom Bombadil! What be you a-thinking, peeping inside my tree, watching me a-drinking deep in my wooden house, tickling me with feather, dripping wet down my face like a rainy weather?' "(Tolkien Reader, "Adventures of Tom Bombadil," p. 12). The fact that JRRT placed this entire passage between quotation marks indicates that it does represent a speech by OMW, addressed to Tom, and apparently OMW even knows Tom's full name.

Tom also speaks to OMW, demanding to be released, the Willow hears, and obeys: "Willow-man let him loose when he heard him speaking," (ATB, p.12). Apparently both Willow and Tom could speak the same language, though what tongue it was, or even if it was pure thought transference, we are never told...

In the next appearance of OMW, in the following poem "Bombadil Goes Boating," things are complicated for us by the late date of these verses. I cannot find an actual date of composition, but it is definitely long after 1934. In fact it may be as late as 1962 the actual date of publication for the slim volume of poems titled "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil." At any rate, it mentions many features of the Shire, and some of the hobbit folk (Maggots) of the Marish-Buckland area. Here Willow Man apparently can understand the speech of birds, for Tom threatens to roast and eat a Willow-wren if she tells Willow Man where Tom is headed. (ATB, p. 16)

_________

Not much help here from the poems then, except the information that the Willow actually "speaks" to Tom when he is inside the tree; and there is no sign of OMW ever leaving the spot where he is rooted. In this sense, at least, immobility, OMW does not seem very Huornish, but some of the other trees of the Old Forest DO seem Huornish in that they both move and "speak."

Is it important that Old Man Willow seems to speak of "his tree," the way we might speak of "my house?" I'm getting a slight feeling that OMW may be a composite creature, a spirit that has come to use a tree as its "body.?" ie "... peeping inside my tree, ... deep in my wooden house..."

Hmmm, more to look up, maybe the HOME volumes will have earlier versions of this OMW tale, with helpful data that was later cut out of the FotR published version?

___________

RE Stormrider's: "So OMW has a grudge and is angry enough to snap M&P inside his trunk."

Yeah, here in FotR there is a motive for Old Man Willow's action. In the ATB poem, no real reason is ever given for this behaviour, the trapping of "humans" inside the trunk of the tree -- OMW just does this, part of his background personality. Now I'm wondering if there is a Norse myth or even a Brother's Grimm Fairy Tale about a tree that "eats" people?

RE: Tom and Treebeard -- yeah, that tickles something in my brain. In the Elder Days, before Treebeard and Tom settled down, didn't they meet? Maybe they said something about each other that may be informative for this discussion? Or am I just thinking of Elrond here, he seemed to know Tom from the Old Days. But I think also, Treebeard does say something to Merry & Pippin about Tom. That might be well worth looking into!

[Stormrider]

In the "Treebeard" Chapter of TT when Treebeard describes a tree going Entish and how some of them have bad hearts, Merry asks: "Like the Old Forest away to the north, do you mean?" and Treebeard replies: "Aye, aye, something like, but much worse. I do not doubt there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad memories are handed down. But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am. Still, we do what we can." Then he explains that they are Ents, shepherds of trees.

After they arrive at a nice Ent stopping place and settle down with some Entdraught, the hobbits relate their adventures to Treebeard. Treebeard asks whether they had seen any Entwives in the Shire and wanted to hear about Saruman's doings and everything about Gandalf, but he never made any comment about Tom Bombadil during any of this passage.

It seems that Treebeard was aware of the Old Forest and its trees but if he knew Tom Bombadil, it is not stated in this chapter anywhere. Doesn't it seem like Treebeard is relating the Great Darkness or Black Shadow of Sauron as the cause for those trees' bad hearts? I think Treebeard has been shut away in Fangorn longer than he realizes and is not up on current events.

[Andorinha]

Hmmm, some interesting new data has come to light in the early versions of LotR:

1. did Treebeard know Tom Bombadil?

In HOME VII, The Treason of Isengard, p 416, Treebeard explained the similarities and differences between Fangorn Forest and the Old Forest next to Buckland. "'Things went wrong there [in the Old Forest] in the Dark {>Elder} Days; some old sorcery, I expect... But that is only a rumour to me. Anyway they have no treeherds there, no one to care for them: it is a long, long time since the Ents walked away from the banks of the Baranduin.' 'What about Tom Bombadil, though?' asked Pippin. 'He lives on the Downs close by. He seems to understand trees.' 'What about whom?' said Treebeard. 'Tombombadil? Tombombadil? So that is what you call him. Oh, he has got a very long name. He understands trees, right enough; but he is not an Ent. He is no herdsman. ...' "

First, this shows that JRRT initially expected Treebeard to know a good deal about Tom Bombadil, though he had not seen him, apparently, since the Elder Days. It also confirms that Tom might know a lot about trees, but Tom is no Ent or Huorn, not a shepherd of the trees. Also, there are no Ents in the Old Forest, so I guess that would definitely rule out OMW as an Ent. But Treebeard does not say whether there are Huorns there, by the Shire, so I guess OMW MIGHT still be a Huorn?

In footnote 4, Chris Tolkien asks the question that is on my mind, why did JRRT later cut all this material, why did he remove the references to Tom Bombadil?

fn 4, CT: "It would be interesting to know why Treebeard's knowledge of and estimate of Tom Bombadil was removed. Conceivably, my father felt that the contrast between Bombadil and the Ents developed here confused the conflict between the Ents and the Enytwives; or, it may be, it was precisely this passage that gave rise to the idea of that conflict." (HOME VII, "Treebeard," pp. 419-20)

2. Was OMW a Huorn?

In HOME VI, The Return of the Shadow, there is an important note from Chris Tolkien:

"The passage concerning Old Man Willow was first written thus: 'Amongst his talk there was here and there much said of Old Man Willow, and Merry learned enough to content him (more than enough, for it was not comfortable lore), though not enough for him to understand how that grey thirsty earth-bound spirit had become imprisoned in the greatest Willow of the Forest. The tree did not die, though its heart went rotten, while the malice of the Old Man drew power out of earth and water, and spread like a net, like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had infected or subjugated nearly all the trees on both sides of the valley.' " (HIST. vol 1, "Return of the Shadow," pp. 120 - 21)

What I'm getting from this passage is the fact that JRRT originally, in LotR, saw Old Man Willow as a composite creature, part evil "disembodient" spirit, and part a simple willow tree. So, sometime in the Black Years of the Elder Days, an evil spirit was roaming about Middle-earth, and it took on a great willow as its home, its body. It then began to dominate the other trees in the Old Forest. There is no mention here of either Ents or their lesser sidekicks, the Huorns. From a note by CT, on p. 110, a general date for this early version is given as the summer of 1938, significantly before JRRT developed the vegetable-style Ents, a time when he was still playing around with the more traditional "anthropomorphic" Stone Giants, such as those found in The Hobbit.

Hmm, let me see then: OMW starts out as a totally independent character in the 1934 Adventures of Tom Bombadil poem, just a tree that sings people to sleep, and then "ingests" them. Later, 1938, OMW shows up in the early version of LotR, again, he sings people to sleep -- this time the hobbits -- and tries to "eat" a few of them, but is mastered by Tom Bombadil. by 1946, OMW is pretty much as we know him in the published text, with no direct statement from JRRT suggesting that he further altered OMW to be an Ent or Huorn gone bad. From all this, I'm getting a strong feeling that OMW is not really associated with either Ents or Huorns -- he is an independent "evil" spirit that has taken up its abode in a plain, simple, though very large willow tree.

I imagine, however, this is still open to differing interpretations, LOL!

[Stormrider]

Andorinha: You beat me to it! After looking in TT for the Treebeard passage, I took my Treason of Isengard and Return of the Shadow books to do this same research! Now I should go back over to that thread I started and see if I even mentioned any of this there (probably not! )

I thought I would look up the published passage while we were at it. In the "In The House of Tom Bambadil" chapter of FOTR, I came on this passage where Tom Bombadil describes The Old Forest and its trees:

As they listened, they began to understand the lives of the Forest, apart from themselves, indeed to feel themselves as the strangers where all other things were at home. Moving constantly in and out of his talk was Old Man Willow, and Frodo learned now enough to content him, indeed more than enough, for it was not comfortable lore. Tom's words laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers. It was not called the Old Forest without reasons, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like find root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the Downs.

Here it does not state that a "grey thirsty earth-bound spirit had become imprisoned in the greatest Willow of the Forest" but rather that it was his thirsty spirit. So these trees had some kind of life of their own ages ago but it does not sound as if they could move about.

Wasn't this phrase: "gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers" used by PJ in his movie as something Treebeard said of Saruman and his orcs who were cutting down Fangorn?

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

admin said:

Wasn't this phrase: "gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers" used by PJ in his movie as something Treebeard said of Saruman and his orcs who were cutting down Fangorn?

It was indeed. I love that line. Treebeard seems to have been assigned a lot of the material from the deleted Old Forest segment in the films, as a similarly nature-oriented character.

Hmm. I still think OMW is a Huorn. Seems to be overcomplicating things if he's not, as that leaves us with a total of three different sentient tree or tree-like species. My guess would be that as the older material quoted by Andorinha predates Tolkien's conception of the Ents and Huorns, OMW was retroactively made a Huorn once that concept came about-- just as a lot of material from The Hobbit and the early writings was reassessed and expanded upon in order to "fit" within the mythology as it developed.

I always got the sense that the early chapters of LOTR were begun without a full sense of what the story would become. Hence the inclusion of OMW, Tom Bombadil, and other elements that don't mesh as smoothly with the greater narrative. Perfectionist that he was, Tolkien likely would have gotten around to "explaining" OMW in later writings and revisions if he'd had the time.