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Post by Stormrider on Apr 2, 2008 6:12:28 GMT -6
Fredegar: Yes, JRRT did not exactly know where he was going when he first sat down and started writing LOTR (See the Return of the Shadow thread that I started here: tolkiensring.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=home&action=display&thread=1179921918) I tend to agree with you that OMW must be a Huorn based on the fact that the earlier concept of the evil spirit residing in him was not defined later in the published works. His grey thirsty spirit mentioned above could just have been a way to describe his nature rather than something that overtook his trunk.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 2, 2008 10:06:18 GMT -6
Now that I've read the early versions in The Return of the Shadow, I can only see OMW as a "huorn" by squinting hard, LOL. I think he was pre-huorn even in the second draft of LotR, and we are reading later developments backwards when we class OMW as a huorn. That said, if we take LotR, published version as our standard, OMW seems most like the huorns, if we have to put him into some sort of overarching classification. Sigh, still, he does not walk, as huorns are supposed to do...
Yeah, Fredegar, given a bit more time, the nature of OMW may have been better explained and his inclusion into huorn status might have been established.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Apr 3, 2008 6:11:50 GMT -6
Did it say any where that OMW didn't walk (I just read through all these post and I don't recall any quotes saying he did not walk, but it is early). He most certainly moved his branches and such in very controled movements, at least in my opinion that shows he possibly can walk.
The definition of huoron in Encyclopedia of Arda is:
This description shows that the huorons can at least communicate with the Ents, but it doesn't say anything about them talking with others. Maybe the hobbits sensed what OMW was trying to communicate rather than actually heard him talk...
I have always and I still feel OMW is a huoron...
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 3, 2008 9:55:48 GMT -6
You make some important points here, Desi...
Hmmm, I guess we are faced with the old problem of "positive" vrs "negative" evidence, LOL. Does OMW ever walk in ANY source? No. Does this mean he CANNOT walk? No. It just means we have never had an instance of his walking. But does THIS mean he CAN walk? No. We simply do not know, and in cases like this, if we wish to approximate scientific logic, we cannot conclude with confidence that he can or even cannot walk. What we then conclude, trying to be scientific, is that, to date there has never been a report of OMW walking, even when he was under extreme duress, getting his trunk burned. Wouldn't you move away from the fire at such a time, if you could, wade into the river?
The Encyclopaedia of Arda, has a funny take on huorns. Maybe there are some Ents (like Finglas) and some huorns that have gone almost immobile -- but this is certainly not the case with the vast "tree" army that chases the Orc army of Saruman. Here, rapid mobility is the key feature. As late as the penning of the chapter "Flotsam and Jetsam," Tolkien was still unsure how to "move" his huorns and toyed at one moment with giving them legs like those of the Ents: "The Ents sent a force of walking trees (with split trunks). They crept on in darkness following the victorious orcs." (The War of the Ring, p. 49). So, does OMW ever show any sign of "split-trunk" legs? LOL.
The mere fact that OMW pre-dates the episodes of Fangorn Forest, the fact that the Ents were originally conceived as being "humanoid" giants, not Tree-creatures, makes it easy for me to dissassociate OMW from both Ents and Huorns -- though we do not ever get a definitive statement from Tolkien on this matter.
To sum up my arguments again:
Is OMW an Ent gone "treeish" or is he a persistently well-rooted Huorn; or, simply a genuine Tree gone genuinely bad? I like the last, it allows me to view OMW as the separate entity that JRRT created for the separate purpose of the poem "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil." OMW is a unique character who came into the LOTR narrative from this pre-existing source, he is pre-Ent, pre-Huorn. He is originally unconnected with the final LotR work, and quite well defined long before hobbits, or Ents, or Huorns were designed. And he originated, I believe, as an evil spirit who entered a tree, becoming a "composite creature." So, in a chapter filled with enigmas and anomalies (JRRT calls Tom Bombadil both!), I guess I tend to view Old Man Willow, as just one more anomaly. Old Man Willow IS himself, for me, and nothing else.
But, without definitive statements from the author to inform us what HE meant, and when or IF he changed his mind on OMW, we are all allowed the fullest use of our own imaginations here, I cannot say OMW was NOT, in JRRT's mind, an Ent, or a Huorn -- sigh, just my feeling that the differences outweigh the similarities, leads me to deny (for my purposes) the Ent/ Huorn connection.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Apr 3, 2008 20:05:57 GMT -6
I cannot say OMW was NOT, in JRRT's mind, an Ent, or a Huorn -- sigh, just my feeling that the differences outweigh the similarities, leads me to deny (for my purposes) the Ent/ Huorn connection. And conversely, I feel that the similarities and the internal consistency that Tolkien demanded of his universe are strong enough to see him as a huorn. I do agree that the character predates such a classification and didn't start that way. But with Middle-earth having evolved as it did, I think OMW can be integrated into it rather than sticking out like a sore thumb in a chapter that would then feel like some other story. Hmm. Seems like we're at an impasse, don't it? I don't know. I guess, like Tolkien, I have a need for internal consistency and continuity. I'm the kind of guy who, when he sees a plot hole or inconsistency in a movie, story, or comic book, comes up with an explanation for it in his head. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Apr 4, 2008 6:25:03 GMT -6
I agree with Freddy......I think if OMW was another type of creature JRRT would have made sure he mentioned what he was.......
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 4, 2008 11:33:59 GMT -6
Yeah, this counts as an "impasse!" LOL But it has been a great discussion from which I learned a good deal! My point concerning inconsistencies in Tolkien is that he left many, he just did not have the time to revise everything, explain everything -- the exact nature of OMW (in JRRT's thought) may be one of those things we never settle.
Thanks All!
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 5, 2008 22:09:56 GMT -6
Re: Fredegar -- "I don't know. I guess, like Tolkien, I have a need for internal consistency and continuity."
Oh, you know, this might make a good discussion topic in itself, LOL! Just how many inconsistencies "glare" out at us from the pages of The Hobbit and LotR? How many others were successfully smoothed away before he died, how many remained yet to be cleared away...
Hmmm, I'll think on this some more, maybe start a new topic line somewhere.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Apr 7, 2008 6:15:06 GMT -6
I think Tolkien would have eventually made everything just the way it should have been if he had enough time, so I guess we just have to make our own conclusions.
Could OMW actually have been an entwife? Old Woman Willow....LOL!
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 7, 2008 10:26:23 GMT -6
LOL! An angry Entwife, hmmm, not sure I want to go that route, but it would explain what Hal saw on the North moors!
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Post by Stormrider on Apr 7, 2008 17:38:08 GMT -6
Yep! That explains it! The Entwives have gone Huorn in The Old Forest! They are even more immovable than the Huorns of Fangorn. No wonder the Ents can't find them--they don't recognize them anymore! ;D
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