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Post by Stormrider on Aug 30, 2007 5:58:56 GMT -6
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Post by Desi Baggins on Aug 31, 2007 6:52:06 GMT -6
Interesting...that is just around the corner. I don't really even know what Beowulf is about. Some well known actors too.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 24, 2007 20:03:39 GMT -6
I thought I would go take a look at our old Beowulf Study forum on the archive site groups.msn.com/TolkiensRing/beowulfstudy1.msnwZauber did a wonderful job being the study leader for this study. I have begun reading Beowulf and have been looking at some of the threads and posted on one of the threads. I will continue to do so and hope that this archived study helps me understand Beowulf. I had wanted to join in the study back when it was going strong, but just didn't have the time. |
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 26, 2007 8:45:58 GMT -6
Ah, this does look like it will be an interesting addition to the Beowulf movies. I've seen two different versions so far, including one where the dragon is used metaphoricaly and is represented by an entire attacking army, the "Seventh Warrior?" LOL, can't remember the titles today. The best one (IMHO) was set on the coast of Iceland and featured a sort of Neanderthal Grendle and his father. The murder of Grendle's dad sets the bloodfeud off... Great scenery in this one. There is also a version where Benjamin Bagby chants the actual saga while playing a Saxon Harp, have not watched it yet, but will today. Just finished Bagby's DVD performance of Beowulf -- excellent! I see now, in the hands of a skillful performer, how a three hour long poem might be as riveting to an ancient audience as our movies can be to us today. Also, the highly scenic version is at: www.beowulfandgrendel.com/The other version, is "The Thirteenth Warrior," 1999, so I was only off by six... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_13th_Warrior |
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 26, 2007 19:32:47 GMT -6
Gredndel and his FATHER? That just doesn't seem right! How did it come off in the movie? I can see a neanderthal type Grendel though--that would make him seem monsterous.
I would like to watch the Bagby performance. It sounds very interesting. Iceland could make some cool scenery, too, I bet. I will have to see if I can find any of these versions before the new one comes out.
In the new one, I just don't know how to picture Angelina Jolie as Grendel's mother. She seems too young to me and pretty. I was thinking she would be big and ugly like I am picturing Grendel to be. Although if the family is from the lineage of Cain (the first kinslayer), then perhaps she could pull it off being the sly slinky type.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 26, 2007 19:51:53 GMT -6
I think I have seen the Thirteenth Warrior with Antonio Banderas, but I had no idea it was about Beowulf! I hardly remember anything about it either.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 27, 2007 5:46:29 GMT -6
Yep, Grendel's Father makes a cameo appearance in the movie, probably because the producers/ writers could not find a "reason" for Grendel's fury. When Dad is killed by a youngish Hrothgar, Grendel dedicates himself to vengeance. So far, of the Beowulf-related films I've seen, this is the most faithful to the story-line of the epic. I liked this version a lot, especially the natural beauty of the rugged landscapes/ seascapes, but be warned: it uses a handful of old Saxon swear words, LOL, realistic?
The guy who starred in the Highlander movies also has a Beowulf movie, but it is a futuristic, post World War III drama only loosely following the saga.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 28, 2007 17:10:19 GMT -6
Andorinha commented:
Reading the threads at the archive site, several people mentioned that Hrothgar may have built Herod on Grendel's territory -- or what he considered his territory -- and then all the carrousing and partying late into the night also aggravated Grendel -- so he thought he had good reason to kill off all the troublemakers who were drunkenly sleeping off their indulgences!
Thorkel, Slade, and Kendal also discuss the possibility that Grendel may have had 'sociopathic human motivations' which accounted for his vicious attacks and cannibalism and no sense of reason for his behavior. The horror of his cannibalism causes fear of the unknown, then reduces him to "inhuman" status'. Therefore, the label 'monster' was given to him.
Was losing his territory to a loud bunch of hungover men and women enough to cause Grendel to have sociopathic human motivations? Probably not, there must have been other reasons behind it as well. What about his living in a mere with his mother? Why did they live there? I think he may have been huge and gruesome to behold and they lived there to be away from the other people who may have laughed and teased him as a child. It could have been many things that led up to it.
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Post by Andorinha on Oct 1, 2007 20:11:09 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider's "Was losing his territory to a loud bunch of hungover men and women enough to cause Grendel to have sociopathic human motivations? Probably not, there must have been other reasons behind it as well."
Yes, from a simple reading of the existant text, it seems, to modern minds anyway, that the idea of "motive" is a bit foggy. But is Grendel really a human, with a set of human motivations? If he is a draugr, a demon, or a ghostly spirit, he may simply be averse to having anything "living" in his neighborhood. One function of being alive, is making noise; and hearing this attribute of life may actually be painful in the extreme for one who is already dead, but still capable of interacting with the living?
I'll read up on the old archival notes, and see if anything comes to mind.
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 2, 2007 6:10:03 GMT -6
Andorinha mentioned:
The other posters pm the archives did mention the possibility of Grendel being a draugr, but I don't think they actually decided that was so. I'm not sure if anyone ever figured it out! But I can see how a draugr would not like the living planting themselves in his territory. But would a draugr, if translated as a ghostly spirit, eat human flesh? a demon might.
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Post by Andorinha on Oct 4, 2007 14:26:42 GMT -6
I've been supplementing my limited understanding of the draugar (plural form) with some quick readings from the internet.
Apparently Norse ghosts were more substantial than the classical Romano-Christian spectre, and the draugr (singular form) is precisely defined as a "corporeal ghost," one that has a physical body. It is still a dead-creature, or perhaps an "undead" thing, and it still has a taste for flesh and blood.
"The undead were known by various names. The haugbui (from haugr meaning 'howe' or 'barrow') was rarely found far from its burial place, and is the type of undead usually found in Norwegian saga material. The term used for revenant is draugr (plural draugar) from Indo-German dreugh, to betray or deceive. In the Edda, draughus means 'house of the revenant,' a grave hill.
"The draugr was the animated corpse that comes forth from its grave or shows restlessness on the road to burial. Another name in use was aptrgangr, which translates as 'after goer' or 'one who walks after death.' Whichever name is used, the Norse undead had a real body and was not identical with a phantom or incorporeal spirit. The corpse was said to be of black or blue or exceptionally pale color. The corpse showed an awful tendency to swell to enormous size, was extremely heavy, and often described as being uncorrupted, even many years after death. (p. 103)
"The revenants crave not only the possessions of the living but also their flesh and blood. In the Egil's Saga, the sworn brothers Aran and Asmund swear that if one should die, the other would sit vigil with him for three days inside the burial mound. When Aran died, Asmund equipped his brother's barrow with his possessions, his banners and armor, hawk, hound, and horse. Then Asmund set himself to wait three days. During the first night, Aran got up from his chair and killed the hawk and hound and ate them. On the second night, he got up again from his chair, and killed the horse and tore it into pieces; then he took great bites at the horse flesh, the blood streaming down from his mouth while he was eating." (p. 105)
(above quotes from Christa A. Tuczay, of chapter 4, from "Shaman to Scientist: Essays on Humanity's Search for Spirits" ed by James Houran ed 2004)
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From "Vampire Universe" by Jonathan Maberry, 2006 comes the following:
"Draugr: The Draugr are strange creatures found in Norway and the surrounding regions. Not typical revenants, they in fact share some qualities with dragons in that they collect treasure and guard it jealosly.
"Occasionally the Draugr leaves its grave in the dead of night -- when it deems it safe to leave its treasure unprotected for a short time -- and attacks sleeping human, tearing its victims apart, feeding on their flesh and blood, and taking the bones back to its den to chew on at leisure.
"The Draugr has the power to control weather and can summon thick fog so that it can safely leave its cairn and go hunting, or conjure storms to hamper pursuit from relatives of its prey. The Draugr is also a shape-shifter and can transform into a hunting bird or a great grey wolf, which it does mostly to allow it to travel quickly and without arousing suspicion."
Maberry's material soon had me drawing comparisons between draugar and Barrow-wight as used by JRRT. Remember the fogs that come to confuse and ensnare the four Hobbits on the barrow downs?
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I do not have the time right now to follow up on the draugr/ Grendel connection, but Andy Orchard gives us a handy set of sources where other scholars have argued that Grendel can be usefully compared to a dragur:
"That Grettir's first monstrous foe should be a revenant, the undead draugr Karr, is of some interest, since a number of scholars of Beowulf have identified Grendel with similar monsters, well-documented from Scandinavian sources." (33)
fn 33 "See, for example, Chadwick, 'Norse Ghosts'; Coffin, 'Beowulf and its Relationship to Norse and Finno-Uguric Beliefs and Narratives', pp 117-42; Hume. 'From Saga to Romance'; Lecouteux, Fantomes et revenants au moyen age, pp 203-09; Niles, Beowulf: the Poem and its Tradition, pp 10-11; Lapidge, 'Beowulf and the Pychology of Terror' pp 375-7"
from "Pride and Prodigies" by Andy Orchard
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 4, 2007 16:22:45 GMT -6
Wow! Other than the shape changing bit, draugr seems to fit Grendel's personality!
1. He comes out at night
2. He feeds on flesh and blood
3. Attacks victims while they sleep
4. He is huge (and heavy--I assume)
5. Uncorrupted (no one could kill him or at least scare him away)
I'm not sure if he was blue, black, or pale. Was he ever described in the poem as any of these? I wonder how the movie will color him.
Was Grendel protecting any kind of treasure? I don't think it specifies that in the poem either. Perhaps his haunting ground is his 'treasure'.
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Post by Andorinha on Oct 5, 2007 22:51:15 GMT -6
There is a hoard in the underwater grottoes where Grendel's mother lived. Booty they had gathered over the years, including a fine collection of magical swords:
"Then he saw a blade that boded well
a sword in her armory, an ancient heirloom
from the days of the giants, an ideal weapon,
one that any warrior would envy."
1557-1560
hmmm, sounds like the magical swords the Dwarves and Gandalf found in the bolt-hole of the Trolls.
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"The Geat captain [Beowulf] saw treasure in abundance
but carried no spoils from those quarters
except for the head [Grendel Mum's] and the inlaid hilt
embossed with jewels, its blade had melted
and the scrollwork on it burned, so scalding was the blood
of the poisonous fiend who had perished there."
1612-1617
hmmm, I'm wondering if the Barrow Wights are based on the haugbui, and the more mobile Nazgul are based on the draugar? Blades used to kill draugar (or at least Grendel's Mum) are destroyed when they enter her flesh, like Merry's blade when it enters behind the Nazgul's "undead" knee?
Skin color.... I'm not sure if this is mentioned in the saga/ poem, I'll check.
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Post by Andorinha on Oct 14, 2007 8:47:41 GMT -6
Yet another Beowulf movie: The Science Fiction channel has a series of "Dragon Adventures," a version of the Sigmund and Fafnir tale, and now a Beowulf with a Minoan-looking city for Heorot instead of a log built mead hall. Ben Cross stars as Hrothgar, and Chris Bruno as Beowulf -- but as I was up late, I did not watch much more than the opening sequence, so I'm not sure how closely they follow the manuscript. Apparently some online critics consider this a "toxic" TV version...
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 16, 2007 6:06:24 GMT -6
I really like the concept of the blade that pierces the enemy dissolves. I wonder how many other tales have used that idea.
I guess I missed the part of all the treasures in Grendel's home. I have to go back and do more reading I guess!
I didn't realize there were already so many versions of Beowulf out already. It looks like it will be difficult to keep track of them all.
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- 'It's an ill wind as blows nobody no good, as I always say. And All's well as ends Better!'
