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Post by Stormrider on Jul 19, 2004 5:50:39 GMT -6
Lanhail wrote:
Tolkien began writing bits and pieces of The Silmarillion in 1913-1925 so Middle-earth was already established. Tom Shippey calls it "the work of his heart."
With this in mind, I can see how The Hobbit became a part of Middle-earth, too. It seems like it would have been the natural thing for Tolkien to do--tell/write another story based on his mythical world!
Since at the time of his telling/writing of The Hobbit Middle-earth was still in the shaping stages, I still believe that Tolkien wanted the Dwarves to find the Troll's treasure (especially the swords!). After the Troll's turned to stone, the key would have been impossible to find or get at! I still think it was pure "luck" that Tolkien made it fall out of William's pocket--no fate involved whatsoever!
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Post by FIUT on Jul 19, 2004 13:47:16 GMT -6
After a long chat with Andorinha the "Ever-Placid," I have concluded, Lanhail, that we may simply be approaching a full impasse here, and certainly we are already at the point of diminishing returns in this subsection of the discussion concerning more the unity/ disunity of Tolkien's vast corpus of fantasy writings, than the concepts of luck, fate (Wyrd), and destiny (Christianized to include "freewill").
I still do not accept your interpretation of a close, original, organic unity between The Hobbit and the mythos. But, I do not see them as being mutually inconsistent, there are shared patterns, and themes, but these are incidental until some time after 1937. I do then see a general assumption of The Hobbit under and into the mythos as time passed and Tolkien became ever more interested in unifying all his works to create a more symmetrical whole, and especially when he was persuaded by his publishers to use The Hobbit as a springboard for his 1940s - 1954 LotR, during which effort he found it necessary to revamp and revise the 1937 edition.
RE Letter #131: The fact that Tolkien had to "discover" for himself, the unity of The Hobbit with his own chaotic, poorly systematized mythos (it was a real mess before he started working on it briefly in the 40s, only to be told that it was unpublishable and people wanted to know more about hobbits, not myths) convinces me that he never deliberately started Bilbo's tale as a fully integrated revealation of the Eru "histories," but found that after he composed the 1937 work, it did fit there afterall (with a little "tweaking"). This is, in my view, "backreading" on Tolkien's own part. And from 1938 - 1940 on, I think he was very concerned that his future fantasy writings would be an integral part of the Eru mythos. So, I see the immediate post Hobbit period (1938 - 1940) as marking the point of this transition away from the production of independent stories (The Hobbit), and poetries (like the Bombadil verses TATB and ST). Before 1940 I see Bombadil and Bilbo as being only loosely embedded in the background matrix of some Faeirie Land -- after 1940, both the characters and tales of Bombadil and Bilbo are alterred to better fit them into a definite Middle-earth that becomes ever more ruled by the Eru mythos.
Here we may toss lightly barbed jibes back and forth forever, without really presenting any persuasive arguments, because I think we are now simply repeating our points of individual interpretation and emphasis. As there are no explicit, defining Tolkien texts to settle these matters for us in a mutually acceptable fashion, we seem to be circling one another in a tightening spiral of mutual, heightening frustration.
So, I think I'll just move on to another line of inquiry.
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Post by Lanhail on Jul 20, 2004 6:49:43 GMT -6
The Old Gaffer has been whispering in my ear for awhile now, "Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your (intellectual) betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you. I've been stealing time away from more pressing and far less enjoyable matters to be here, so ending the argument is for the best, Heril. Thank you for the stimulating discussion. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. I will try to get back to the TB thread when I may. Lanhail
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 3, 2012 18:21:04 GMT -6
Luck and Fate are tricksssy topicsss!
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