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Post by Sparrow on Aug 31, 2004 19:55:31 GMT -6
Luck has been a recurring theme in this story. Having killed the first giant spider, it remained for Bilbo to locate and rescue his companions. Lost, and thinking it unwise to shout, Bilbo guessed "at the direction from which the cries for help had come in the night - and by luck . . . he guessed more or less right." Is this really luck? Or is it destiny, or Bilbo's subconscious, or something else aiding him? Do you believe in luck?
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 31, 2012 6:57:55 GMT -6
Was it fate or luck?
I am not sure if it would be considered bad luck or bad fate, but they ended up in some difficult situations: caught by Trolls (who would have thought a purse would talk?), terrible storms that drove them into the goblins' front door cave, getting separated inside, running into Gollum, getting attacked by wargs and driven up trees that get set on fire, having Bombur slip into the water and fall asleep, getting lost in the forest trying to get food from the Elves, getting separated again and getting caught by spiders.
Or were they just not thinking straight which caused them to get into trouble themselves by making bad choices?
Was it luck or fate, that Gandalf came along for part of the Quest and was there to help them out of many of the sticky situations they had gotten themselves into?
As Andorinha mentioned on another thread: Bilbo found his Luck Ring. I think this Ring changed his bad luck into good luck at least for The Hobbit story. Initially for the 1937 version, it was a luck ring. But after merging with the LOTR and Sil material, it becomes fate rather than luck.
However, after fate helped Bilbo get the ring, was there an element of luck involved in both versions enabling Bilbo to use his ring to his advantage to get out of the mountains and in saving the Dwarves from the spiders? Or would it just be Bilbo using his wits and imagination to enabled him to get the Dwarves out of the webs of the spiders?
So what is Fate and what is Luck? Once again from the Merriam Webster online dictionary.
Definition of FATE: 1: the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do: destiny 2a: an inevitable and often adverse outcome, condition, or end 2b: disaster; especially: death 3a: final outcome 3b: the expected result of normal development <prospective fate of embryonic cells> 3c: the circumstances that befall someone or something <did not know the fate of her former classmates> 4 (plural capitalized): the three goddesses who determine the course of human life in classical mythology
Definition of LUCK: 1a: a force that brings good fortune or adversity 1b: the events or circumstances that operate for or against an individual 2: favoring chance; also: success <had great luck growing orchids>
Reading these definitions, it seems to me that Luck does play more of a role in the story than Fate does. They both have roles, but Luck seems to be a more prominent force to me.
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 31, 2012 20:15:24 GMT -6
Oooo! Good Stuff Here, Stormrider!
The definitional material helps, because I'm getting the idea that in several thought systems and religions there is a great deal made about the supposed differences between Fate/ Destiny and Luck/ Fortune/ Chance.
Hmm, need to do a little research here, but I think the Norse Saga material (from which Tolkien draws heavily for his Middle-earth) has a specific concept of Luck that is uniquely its own, and differs quite a bit from modern western ideas on this topic. It may be that the Bilbo-luck, and his ring-luck are based on this peculiar Nordic concept/ belief.
Be back in a bit...
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 1, 2012 5:19:40 GMT -6
From Bettina Sejbjerg Sommer, The Norse Concept of Luck, Society for the Advancement of Scandinavian Study, Volume 79:3 pp. 275–94 The fickleness of luck is a standing motif in our culture. For many, luck is defined by unpredictability more than anything else. In Norse culture, the case is quite the opposite in that luck had nothing to do with what we would refer to as coincidence or chance. On the contrary, luck was a quality inherent in the man and his lineage, a part of his personality similar to his strength, intelligence, or skill with weapons, at once both the cause and the expression of the success, wealth, and power of a family. Luck expressed itself partially in skills, beauty, and other desirable characteristics, but also in events shaping themselves according to the wishes of the lucky man. One might have luck in specified areas but not in others, such as fishingluck or weatherluck for example. But the so-called “man of luck” was the man who possessed luck generally, not just in one specific area. People possessed luck in different measure and one was helpless against an opponent who had greater luck. Kings especially were great men of luck to the degree that they were able to send forth their luck to assist others. Luck was not a thing to be sought or found by coincidence; one had the luck that one was accorded by fate. Yet, in certain cases luck could be diminished or lost, a phenomenon on which I shall elaborate later. As to the more specific details of how the notion of luck was perceived, not much is known, and scholarship on the topic has been relatively limited. I find that the view of luck as part of a man’s inherent nature sets the Norse concept of luck uniquely apart from a more modern conception, and it is this aspect of luck that I will investigate in this article. From vikingmyths.com/concepts/the-parts-of-the-self/The Parts of the Self Dan McCoy In the modern Western world, we think of the self as having two or three components: a body, a mind, and perhaps a “soul” that may or may not be identical with the mind. These few parts form a tightly coherent single whole that can be clearly and cleanly separated from its “environment.” The line that separates self and other is absolute and unalterable.
In the worldview of the pre-Christian Norse and other Germanic peoples, however, the self is a much more complex entity. It’s comprised of numerous different parts that are all semi-autonomous and can detach themselves from one another at will, and the border between the self and its “environment” is highly porous and ambiguous. Precisely what constitutes the self at any given moment is a matter that’s constantly being negotiated and re-negotiated between various factions.
The Hamingja
While there are countless entities that are considered parts of a human self in various places in Old Norse literature, the sixth and final one that we’ll be considering here is the hamingja (pronounced “HAHM-ing-ya”). The word is often used in an abstract sense to signify “luck,” but the pre-Christian Germanic understanding of luck is very different from our own. In Bettina Sommer’s fitting words, “luck was a quality inherent in the man and his lineage, a part of his personality similar to his strength, intelligence, or skill with weapons, at once both the cause and the expression of the success, wealth, and power of a family.”
Luck, the hamingja, is a personal entity in its own right, is part of the self, and can be split off from the other components of the self in certain circumstances. When a person dies, his or her hamingja is often reincarnated in one of his or her descendents, particularly if the child is given the name of the original owner of the hamingja. Sometimes, as in Viga-Glum’s Saga, the hamingja bequeaths itself to a relative of its original owner of its own accord, without any special naming having to take place. The hamingja can also be lent to others during life to assist them in particularly perilous missions where luck is needed especially badly. _____________ I am thinking here, that "luck" in Tolkien's The Hobbit, is not used, as we today might use it, as "chance," or "fortune," but rather, the kind of "luck" Bilbo has comes directly out of the more complex concept of the Norse hamingja. RE above Sommer: "luck was a quality inherent in the man and his lineage, a part of his personality similar to his strength, intelligence, or skill with weapons, at once both the cause and the expression of the success, wealth, and power of a family." I think Gandalf first decides to select Bilbo for inclusion in the quest precisely because our hobbit has inherited his mother's (Belladonna's) extraordinary "luck." Bilbo, in the wizard's appreciation, is already an inherently "lucky" character. He is even lucky enough to be discovered by the wizard, and sent off on a trek that will allow his character to blossom, allow Bilbo to reach his full potential. Along the way, (Bilbo, by his own, his familial luck) is "lucky" enough to find just the sort of powerful heirloom that will add to his initial luck, and act as a focusing agent for him -- the ring, is quite soon seen by Bilbo as being lucky in itself, and with it on his finger he becomes the supremely "lucky" luck-wearer. Even the idea of a ring of power acting as a ring of luck, is seen in the Norse Faereyinga Saga: There was a woman in the house over against the door, right fairly decked she was. The Earl cast him down at her feet, and there he lay long, and when he rose up he told Sigmund that they should bring her some offering and lay the silver thereof on the stool before her. "And we shall have it as a mark of what she thinks of this, if she will do as I wish and let the ring loose which she holds in her hand. For thou, Sigmund, shalt get luck by that ring." (F. Y. Powell, "The Tale of Thrond of Gate," Faereyinga Saga, p. 31.) books.google.com/books?dq=Powell,+Frederick+York+%2B+%22The+Tale+of+Thrond+of+Gate%22&jtp=31&id=kjVcAAAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q&f=true So, here we have all the ingredients, I think, a concept of "inherent luck," the hamingja, and the idea of a luck-ring. Concerning Bilbo: combing both forms of luck, is there any doubt that he shall be successful in his quest? No wonder Gandalf felt that he could leave the expedition on the eaves of Mirkwood!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 1, 2012 8:03:42 GMT -6
Cool stuff! That's right! Belladonna Took had exceptional luck and if it is an inherited trait, Bilbo was apt to inherit some of that luck himself. Gandalf did select the last member of the Company for luck, to make it the lucky number 13! I like this Norse concept of luck being inherited and one with this trait would be lucky in many things. As Andorinah said, Gandalf must have known that and selected Bilbo because of that. Bilbo did grow in his luck as he adventured with the Dwarves to the Lonely Mountain. So Gandalf felt secure that when he left the group at the edge of Mirkwood, Bilbo's "luck" would surface and be a great help to the Dwarves. But boy! That still is depending on a LOT of luck to defeat a dragon! This concept reminds me of one of my favorite songs: "Lucky Man" by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm7-cysfE2c), and the man was very lucky in everything in his life . . . but alas! in the end, no matter how much luck he had, he still died in battle.
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