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Post by Desi Baggins on Mar 13, 2005 11:08:43 GMT -6
What did you think of the plan to trap the Goblins, wolves and wargs in the valley?
I am horrible at History so I am wondering can this Battle of 5 armies be compared to any battle in History? Was there another battle of 5 armies?
Also what did you think of Bilbo's personal strategy?
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 20, 2011 12:06:32 GMT -6
1. "What did you think of the plan to trap the Goblins, wolves and wargs in the valley?"
Actually, it seems to be a good plan, at first look anyway. From the map of Erebor the two southern arms of the peak form an inverted V shape. As the Goblins would advance towards the Gate, the area of their battle field would narrow. This would crowd the Goblins together, slow down their charging impetus, tangle them up with their fellows and reduce their fighting efficiency. Meanwhile, ranged on the ridges of the two spurs, the Elves, Dwarves, and Men would hold the high ground, and could shoot arrows, throw rocks, roll boulders, and toss spears into the flanks of the Goblin force, enfilading fire I think they call it. It would be quite a slaughter pen.
The only problem with this tactic, as Tolkien develops the battle, was the fact that the Goblins had so many troops that they could mount a flanking attack of their own, coming up the spur of the mountain and catching the Men and Dwarves from behind. The trap was reversed by this maneuver, and now the "Good Guys" were receiving enfilade fire, and were on the verge of being overrun when the "air-arm" of the "Good Guys" came to the rescue -- the Eagles.
2. "I am horrible at History so I am wondering can this Battle of 5 armies be compared to any battle in History? Was there another battle of 5 armies?"
Hmmm. As I vaguely recall there was a "Battle of the Nations," back in Napoleon's time, otherwise called The Battle of Leipzig. But I'm not sure how many separate armies were involved. Tolkien, as a staunch Britisher, would be very familiar with the battles of Napoleon. Maybe even Waterloo would serve as a template? Here, the "Good Guys," presumably the English, Prussians, Austrians, Belgians etc started out doing well, then were almost overwhelmed by the French, only to be saved by the miraculous appearance of a "lost" corps of Prussians.
Ah, just googled the "Battle of Nations," it also had five armies in conflict: Prussia, Russia, Austria and Sweden against the French. The French also had some Poles and Germans with them, just as the Goblins had their Warg allies. LOL, this is all sheer speculation! In any case, if we take the French as the Goblins, they lost at Waterloo, and they lost at Leipzig where the Allies had surrounded the French/ Goblins on three sides. No evidence has survived Leipzig to indicate whether or not a large bear also attacked the French.
3. "Also what did you think of Bilbo's personal strategy?"
Given his lack of stature/ strength, his lack of training in armed combat, I think using his ring to enhance his "camouflage" and add to his survival potential was quite the right thing to do. It is interesting to me, that our hobbit joined the Elves rather than fight with the Dwarves, or his erstwhile hosts from the Laketown. Apparently Bilbo really had an almost instinctive liking for the Elves, despite the treatment of his Dwarven buddies in the Wood-elves' dungeon. Peculiar? It is also interesting that, as Tolkien put it, Bilbo was thinking of his own possible death in this battle, and made his decision -- if he must die -- to die "defending" the Elven-king (H. p 269-70). Why? Why not run, invisibly, back to join Thorin and company, or make his stand with Thorin's relatives? Is there something Elvish about the hobbits in general? Sam, and Frodo, later in LOTR seem to have a special affinity for Elves, even before they start their venture. I guess maybe Bilbo was already an "Elf-friend" without knowing it?
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 21, 2011 6:23:37 GMT -6
No evidence has survived Leipzig to indicate whether or not a large bear also attacked the French. ;D I think Bilbo did not like the greediness and haughtiness of Thorin and his unwillingness to pay back any damages that his disruption of Smaug's rest caused to Laketown. I can see why Thorin would not want to share anything with the Elves since his group was held captive in the cave for so long. But Bilbo was very exhausted from all his dealings in this adventure and he just wanted everyone to be happy and friendly with each other. He used the Arkenstone for leverage in making Thorin deal fairly with the other races. Bilbo's way of handling the situation gave Thorin the insight to realize he was acting unfairly in the end. |
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 22, 2011 8:36:47 GMT -6
Found this thumb-nail image of the Elven King, guess he looks more sickly green than blue as I remembered: www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Jr2kH5AguCY/Rug2nh_jTkI/AAAAAAAAAL0/MpP3WpGUkAg/s320/Thranduil_from_Rankin-Bass_The_Hobbit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://tolkiengeek.blogspot.com/2005/07/hobbit-cartoon-whats-wrong-with-it.html&h=135&w=180&sz=9&tbnid=bdTsbURAsYl1cM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=101&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRankin%2BBass%2BHobbit%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Rankin+Bass+Hobbit&hl=en&usg=__tZN2ijNn5_d1TEQQUsq9mc1bzHM=&sa=X&ei=V0V7Tr3jCKfWiALnrbXZDw&ved=0CB4Q9QEwBQI'm gonna backtrack in The Hobbit for a while, try to see if Tolkien gave Bilbo any prior contact with, knowledge of the Elves. Sam starts out in LOTR already predisposed to like Elves, in fact he seems to have a positive mania for them, even if he'd never met any until the Woody End episode. But I can't recall that Bilbo ever mentioned anything, positive or not concerning Elves until after he met them in Rivendell. So, Bilbo would have no preconceived, positive affection for Elves? Nor did I get the idea that in Rivendell he was treating the Elves with more liking/ respect/ awe than he did the Dwarves -- so his "sudden" seeming attachment to the Wood Elves just seems a bit odd to me. I'll need to do some more investigating here. I'm thinking that Tolkien started identifying himself with Bilbo, even though he said in a Letter that he always felt himself to be Gandalf in this story. But, at any rate, I think that JRRT was sort of transferring his own great sentiment for the Elves to Bilbo. Yeah, good Ole Bilbo had a much more generous, liberal, and pragmatic idea about wealth than did Thorin. |
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 23, 2011 6:41:06 GMT -6
I don't think The Hobbit says anything about Bilbo's knowledge of Elves (or Dwarves), but in Quest for Erebor in UT, there were comments on why Gandalf picked Bilbo and one of them was because he liked to go off and visit Dwarves and Elves. I will have to look that up. But didn't I just post that recently on another thread? What thread was that?
The Elven King in your link looks kind of Orcish. Yuck!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 23, 2011 17:18:06 GMT -6
Found this thumb-nail image of the Elven King, guess he looks more sickly green than blue as I remembered: www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Jr2kH5AguCY/Rug2nh_jTkI/AAAAAAAAAL0/MpP3WpGUkAg/s320/Thranduil_from_Rankin-Bass_The_Hobbit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://tolkiengeek.blogspot.com/2005/07/hobbit-cartoon-whats-wrong-with-it.html&h=135&w=180&sz=9&tbnid=bdTsbURAsYl1cM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=101&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRankin%2BBass%2BHobbit%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Rankin+Bass+Hobbit&hl=en&usg=__tZN2ijNn5_d1TEQQUsq9mc1bzHM=&sa=X&ei=V0V7Tr3jCKfWiALnrbXZDw&ved=0CB4Q9QEwBQI'm gonna backtrack in The Hobbit for a while, try to see if Tolkien gave Bilbo any prior contact with, knowledge of the Elves. Sam starts out in LOTR already predisposed to like Elves, in fact he seems to have a positive mania for them, even if he'd never met any until the Woody End episode. But I can't recall that Bilbo ever mentioned anything, positive or not concerning Elves until after he met them in Rivendell. So, Bilbo would have no preconceived, positive affection for Elves? Nor did I get the idea that in Rivendell he was treating the Elves with more liking/ respect/ awe than he did the Dwarves -- so his "sudden" seeming attachment to the Wood Elves just seems a bit odd to me. I'll need to do some more investigating here. I'm thinking that Tolkien started identifying himself with Bilbo, even though he said in a Letter that he always felt himself to be Gandalf in this story. But, at any rate, I think that JRRT was sort of transferring his own great sentiment for the Elves to Bilbo. Yeah, good Ole Bilbo had a much more generous, liberal, and pragmatic idea about wealth than did Thorin. I found the information that I posted regarding any previous interaction Bilbo may have had with Elves. It is in this thread: tolkiensring.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=movies&action=display&thread=331&page=16 |
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 26, 2011 9:33:12 GMT -6
Yes, here again, we have "The Quest of Erebor" material to contend with...
Originally, restricting ourselves to The Hobbit, I can find no statement -- so far -- as to Bilbo having any interest in the Elves. Maybe a bit of an interest in "adventuring," as he recalls Gandalf's earlier work in the Shire stimulating other hobbits to rush off into the blue, but nothing about a desire to meet the Elves. I think "The Quest of Erebor" was JRRT's attempt to alter The Hobbit, to help it to fit in with LOTR, and in Q of E, Tolkien does try to give more plausibly adult reasons for Bilbo being chosen, and being accepted by the Dwarves. But, as far as I have re-read the text, in The Hobbit itself, I have not found any hints of Bilbo having thought about the Elves before he actually met them. I'll keep looking.
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- 'It's an ill wind as blows nobody no good, as I always say. And All's well as ends Better!'
