Our names in Middle-earth

[Desi Baggins]

This morning I started playing around with languages as did Tolkien.

Firstly I looked at my screen name Desi and decided this is in Common Speech form and I wanted it in Hobbit form. What I found from reading LotR Appendix F (I believe) is that the Hobbit language is little known or remembered but it resembled Rohirric which is based off of Old English mostly. Plus I read that most girl names have "o" or "e" endings and boys have "a" endings.

Secondly I went to an online name search site and found that Desi means desire (Spanish)

Third I went to a English to Old English dictionary and found this:
desire-
geornfulnes; lust, m; neodlaðu <br>
So I have decided that Desi in the lost language of the Hobbits is Geornfulne. I dropped the "s" so I could have the "e" ending.

I also did this with my real name Marcia meaning martial or brave. Brave was in the dictionary but not martial:
brave-
caf; cene; collenferð; deor; heard; heardhicgende; heaþodeor heaþorof; hildedeor; modig; secgrof

So I went for keeping my name starting with "M" and turned it into Modigo (I added the "o" ending)

Name Searches:
www.babynames.com/V5/
www.parenthood.com/babynames.html

English to Old English dictionary www.mun.ca/Ansaxdat/vocab/wordlist.html

I am wondering if this would be the correct way to go about this? I am right in thinking The Hobbit language is based on Old English or is it another language.?

[Fangorn]

While I am no expert on this, it seems to my intuition, that "Hobbitish" (if you will) is based more on a Anglo-Saxon sensibility than Old English, which does seem more Rohirric. Hobbit names as used by Tolkien, seem to resemble a more modern English like what is used in 16-20th century London.

Names like Lobelia Bracegirdle, Ted Sandyman, and Gaffer Gamgee, are more indicative of the modern English countryside, with the lower caste names describing the trade, and the more affluent ones using the "of Longbottom" form.

If I were you Desi, I would first ascertain my place in Hobbit society. If you are wealthy and affluent like Baggins of Bag End, or Daisey Marsh of Frogmorten, OR a trades person, like Daisey Loom (the seamstress) or Daisey Blooms ( the florist).

Hope this helps, but like I said I am no expert! (p.s. I like Daisey Marsh, so feel free to use it if you want.....Marsh sounds a bit like Marcia...and you do find frogs in marshes)

[Fangorn]

Of course if you are talking about Hobbit language before the thrid age, then you are probably closer to the truth of it being akin to the Rohirric form of Old English. Tolkien did not provide us with many Hobbit names much before the second or third ages, aside from Smeagol and Deagol, and I think those three Hobbits who founded the three clans, Stoors, etc. I forget their names.

Depends on how far back you want to go I guess. I prefer the more modern Hobbit names, which of course you can argue are actually in the common speech. It ssems Hobbits being practical, gave the girls mostly flower names like Rose and Daisey, or describes hair like Goldilocks. The boys seem to have more personality type names like Merry and Pippin, or for that matter like Fatty Bolger.

Good luck! It will be interesting to see the final result of your investigation.

[Stormrider]

Check Appendix F of The Return of the King. It is about the languages of all the peoples of Middle Earth. It states there is no language specifically Hobbitish but that they have always used the languages of the Men near whom they live. It does state that some of their words are similar or taken from that of the Rohirrim.

[Desi Baggins]

From what I figure the names in the books are the Hobbit's common speech names, so what I was trying to do was go back to there original language (before second or third ages).

In Appendix F it says something about Sam's name really being Ban which is short for Banazîr meaning halfwise or simple. Then it says Tolkien preserved the name to Samwise coming from ancient English samwís.

I guess if I recreated my name now that I am more familar with Hobbit names and keeping it in common speech I would go with something like Lily Marsh (I liked that one Fangorn) or Lily Horseman or Opal Marsh or Opal Horseman. My favorite flower is a lily and my birthstone is the opal. Maybe I can write I story using these characters!

[Stormrider]

Here is a link about Rohirric: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Rohirric
This is one of the statements from the link above:

As Westron is rendered in the novels with English, Rohirric is always translated through Old English. This is because Tolkien tried to reproduce for English readers its archaic flavour in relationship to the Common Speech.

However the relationships between the two pairs of languages is not identical: Old English is the direct ancestor of modern English, but Rohirric was not the direct ancestor of Westron, since the latter derives from Adûnaic.

[Stormrider]

I looked up my TR Name in my Old English to English dictionary:

Storm = styrman
Rider = ridda
Stormrider = Styrmanridda

That would be the closest I can come to Rohirric (term coined by Robert Foster). From Wikipedia: "Tolkien referred to the language of the Rohirrim as "Rohan" or (disputedly) "Rohanese"."

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

This site can translate names into Sindarin, Quenya, and Rohirric. It has a database of common or already requested names that were researched:

www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Semantics&file=index&volume=4

My real name, Eric, means "Ever-Ruler" in Old English. In Sindarin, I'd be "Conuiron" (which means "Ruler of Eternity"). In Quenya, I'd be "Oiotarmo" ("Ever-Ruler"). And since Rohirric is represented by Old English, I'd be "Áríc," the original spelling of my name.

No idea how to translate Fredegar (if we're doing our screennames). I guess "Frederick" would be the closest in modern English and that derives from a similar root to "Eric" actually.

[Stormrider]

Council of Elrond! Good place to look. They have Quenya and Sindarin classes. Have they added Rohirric?

I looked up Stormrider and Carol and Carole (this is really how I spell my name) and it did not come up on any of the three language name databases. Looks like I will have to sign in (I hope I can find my login info!) to get my names added.

[Stormrider]

In my Old English to English dictionary, I looked up Carol and it was not listed. I looked up song:

song: (cwide) giedd (n)
(leod) with a straight line over the e (m)

song of joy: blissesang (m)

song of longing: fusleoo (n) (straight line over the u and e and something over the 2nd o but I don't have my glasses on and can't make it out)

song of praise: lofsang (m)

song of victory: sigeleoo (line over e and same thing with 2nd o)

So would you consider Carol (as in Christmas Carol) a song of joy or song of praise? It could be either.

* * *

I will come back later and look at the accent chart and make the correct marks over the vowels after I have my glasses on!

[Andorinha]

Thanks Stormrider and Fredegar for the URLs!

Hmmm:

"The etymology of carol is uncertain. While there is general agreement that it comes from the Old French carole, no one really knows where it came from before that. Most agree that the earlier form was probably corola but opinions are divided as to whether it derives from chorus (i.e. the singing dancers of ancient theater) or from corolla, 'crown' or 'garland', from the shape of the circle-dance.

It may come as a surprise to many of our readers to discover that a carol was not originally a song but a dance. Specifically it was a circle-dance, danced to a single jig. (For our non-musical readers, a single jig goes DUM-dee, DUM-dee, DUM-dee, DUM.) Another surprise is that it was not necessarily associated with Christmas, either. There were Easter carols, too."

cf -- www.takeourword.com/Issue065.html

Tolkien must have a word for "singing-dancer," his Elves go in for that sort of activity, Hobbits too?