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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 21, 2020 12:49:02 GMT -6
Thanks Andy! I looked in the Ring of Words book that I am reading. It did not have silmaril in it, but the word Silharrow (a rejected name for Haradrim). And it mentioned the "Sigelwara Land" essay.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 22, 2020 12:43:18 GMT -6
The next subtopic in The Ring of Words is on archaisms. It talks about the the rediscovery of anything medieval that began in the late 18th century exemplified by Sir Walter Scott's poems and novels, and the collection of folklore in which Andrew Lang, the Grimms, and Elias Lonnrot are representative. (The authors suggest that the Longfellow's epic poem, Hiawatha, was directly inspired by the Kalevala. I'd like to investigate that.) Also, interest in Beowulf was growing... Philology rode the wave. Then the section goes into specifics from different authors and their 'period prose' influence on Tolkien and also, some very specific words, such as doth, spake, and o'er. It includes some 'period prose' that was poorly done, as in Dasent's translation of The Story of Burnt Njal: www.gutenberg.org/files/17919/17919-h/17919-h.htmThere was a bad harvest that year in the land, yet Gunnhillda gave Hrut as much meal as he chose to have; and now he busks him to sail out to Iceland...
He said, "Ill luck is the end of ill redes, and now I see how it has all gone...Let us now gather folk and follow him up thither north.
Swan said, "Go thou out with me, there won't be need of much". So they went out both of them, and Swan took a goatskin and wrapped it about his own head, and said, "Become mist and fog, become fright and wonder mickle to all those who seek thee"I needed these, in order to realize how well Tolkien's use flows. In Tolkien's essay, 'On Translating Beowulf' (Monsters and the Critics. pg 55-56) he states: “Words should not be used merely because they are 'old' or obsolete. The words chosen, however remote they may be from colloquial speech or ephemeral suggestions, must be words that remain in literary use, especially in the use of verse, among educated people. (To such Beowulf was addressed, into whatever hands it may since have fallen.) They must need no gloss. The fact that a word was still used by Chaucer, or by Shakespeare, or even later, gives it no claim, if it has in our time perished from literary use.” Next, The subheading, The Evolution of Archaism from Morris to Tolkien
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 27, 2020 12:07:59 GMT -6
*Wakes up, pulls the cobwebs off, and quickly looks around to see if anyone is watching*
Ok. Back to Morris and archaism. As Andy pointed out in another thread, Morris's style influenced Tolkien greatly. Tolkien acknowledged his debt to Morris. And Morris was "an unabashed and profligate archaizer." (pg 70) The book gives a typical passage from one of Morris's books. But, then goes on to say that even though Tolkien's early grammar and particular words were heavily influenced by Morris, he started weeding out some of the archaisms sometime in the 1930's. There will be several examples of what he kept or subtly altered in the Word Study portion. Further in the section, it gives the description of the Hall of the Wolfings and compared it to Meduseld. I found that interesting. A short piece: As to the house within, two rows of pillars went down it endlong, fashioned of the mightiest trees that might be found, and each one fairly wrought with base and chapiter, and wreaths and knots, and fighting men and dragons; so that it was like a church of later days that has a nave and aisles: windows there were above the aisles, and a passage underneath the said windows in their roofs. -- Wolfings
The hall was long and wide and filled with shadows and half lights; mighty pillars upheld its lofty roof. But here and there bright sunbeams fell in glimmering shafts from the eastern windows, high under the deep eaves...They saw now that the pillars were richly carved, gleaming dully with gold and half-seen colours. --LotR
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 27, 2020 16:17:52 GMT -6
Ah! Medusel. Just love the Golden Hall.
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 31, 2020 4:48:36 GMT -6
I got distracted by a "shiny" Haven't bought it yet. Tolkien in PawneelandThe only review: First, I'll say that Tolkien in Pawneeland is, at times, a bit scholarly for the casual reader. But, by "scholarly," we're talking about details related to Tolkien, Middle-earth, hobbits, wizards, and dragons, so even the forays into academic discussion can be pretty darn cool, if you're already so inclined.
I'll admit that when I first heard the premise the book, I was skeptical -- that, in addition to Scandinavian and early English mythologies, Tolkien may have also drawn inspiration for his elaborate legendarium from the Pawnee of North America. But I was intrigued enough to follow the author's discussion. Mr. Echo-Hawk points out that not only was an important book of Pawnee tales published at the beginning of the 20th century, but one of the libraries at Oxford held a copy, which Tolkien, the young philologist and student of mythology, may well have read... which at least opens the doorway for a very real discussion.
The first few chapters of Mr. Echo-Hawk's book raise interesting questions and point out some striking parallels between the Pawnee tales from that book and Tolkien's developing world, but with enough intellectual wiggle room to still dismiss the author's claim, if you choose. But somewhere about a third of the way into Tolkien in Pawneeland, Mr. Echo-Hawk raises a series of surprisingly unique details that convinced me personally of the validity of his argument, that Tolkien, in creating Middle-earth, seeded his stories with details and mythical currents gathered from several traditions -- northern European, certainly, but also from the Pawnee people, as well.I happened upon the Blog: pawneeland.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/tolkien-and-the-taylorian/ There are a number of posts if you search Tolkien.
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 31, 2020 8:37:36 GMT -6
Very interesting, Fan -- thank you! Would like to see more material on this, some quotes for direct comparisons, but very intriguing!
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Post by fanuidhol on Aug 31, 2020 10:12:49 GMT -6
Here is one from the blog: (and I am not saying yay or nay to this) Smaug is slain by an arrow that seems to have special properties. And it is clear that Tolkien borrowed some of these properties from an Elvish arrow he invented during the 1920s. But for The Hobbit Tolkien added something new. He colored the arrow black. The shooting of this special black arrow into Smaug is memorable: “The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight for the hollow by the left breast where his foreleg was flung wide.”
In a Skidi story that considers the special use of black arrows, a buffalo gets killed in exactly the same way: “…as the buffalo threw out its front leg, the boy pulled his bow-string, loosed the arrow, and shot the buffalo in the soft place under the shoulder, so that the arrow went through the heart.” Smaug flings out his foreleg and is shot by Tolkien’s black arrow, just as the buffalo in the Pawnee story throws out its front leg and gets shot by a Pawnee arrow.pawneeland.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/tolkiens-black-arrow/This is the post that got me to the blog: pawneeland.wordpress.com/2014/05/14/born-before-the-world/
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 31, 2020 13:32:19 GMT -6
JRRT read a lot! I can't imagine how much he read. But reading in his days was the way to entertain yourself (no radio, TV, internet, etc. Back then). Plus he had a curious mind it seems. I'm glad he was so well read. Another (red) arrow is the one sent by Gondor to the Rohirrim. I wonder if there is something that inspired JRRT to use that. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Red_ArrowThis is what inspired the Red Arrow tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_House_of_the_Wolfings
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 31, 2020 19:19:33 GMT -6
Thanks, Fan. That's what I was hoping for!
Stormy, RE your "Another (red) arrow is the one sent by Gondor to the Rohirrim. I wonder if there is something that inspired JRRT to use that."
I think we visited just that topic some time back under "Authors Who Influenced Tolkien," March 5, 2007.
2007?! Wow time does pass quickly. LOL, I find it hard to remember what we have discussed, and when!
Morris uses an arrow like that sent to the Rohirrim as a sign of war; and then we tried to find original Nordic sources that might have used such an arrow back in the day of the Norse sagas.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 1, 2020 10:15:19 GMT -6
Andy, Thanks. I do sort of remember discussing the Red Arrow. Was it under Authors Who Influenced Tolkien or doing the Two Tower or ROTK studies?
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 1, 2020 13:49:27 GMT -6
It is under "Authors Who Influenced Tolkien," Morris, and dated March 5, 2007. First page down towards the bottom third.
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