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Post by Stormrider on May 23, 2007 6:05:18 GMT -6
I always said "One day I will read Tolkien's first drafts of his story." and now I am!
It is interesting to know that JRRT did not start out with any idea of what he was going to write about. Frodo's story (although he was called Bingo Bolger-Baggins) started out because Bilbo and he had spent Bilbo's entire treasure over the years--absolutely nothing was left! Then he was just going to go out into the world travelling wherever his feet took him. He took Frodo, Odo, and Marmaduke with him who were his nephews.
JRRT did not have any idea how many rings there were for Men, Elves, or Dwarves as he began writing so he did not know how many black riders there were. It doesn't even seem as if he knew in the very beginning chapters that The Ring was evil either. Along the road though, he does put The Ring on once when a black rider is sniffing for him. Luckily he is saved by the Elves travelling past them.
Aragorn was a wild hobbit ranger named Trotter who was darker skinned and wore wooden shoes. I know there is an explanation for the wooden shoes somewhere in this book but I haven't come to it yet. I think it had something to do with his being held and tortured by the Necromancer (now sometimes called the Dark Lord). Trotter seems to know more about the black riders and that The Ring makes Bingo invisible.
The Bree/Prancing Pony chapter is similar to the final published work and contains a lot of the same elements as we know them but maybe not in the same order or who does what. They do not get Bill the pony from Bill Ferny though. They just purchase a pony from someone else thru Butterbur. Trotter hits Ferny in the face with half an apple.
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Post by Andorinha on May 23, 2007 21:03:01 GMT -6
Great Stuff, Stormrider!
RE: Stormrider -- "JRRT did not have any idea how many rings there were for Men, Elves, or Dwarves as he began writing so he did not know how many black riders there were. It doesn't even seem as if he knew in the very beginning chapters that The Ring was evil either."
I especially like the way JRRT started this early trilogy, almost stream of consciousness, just wandering where his imagination led, no "script" to follow. The whole thing seems to have grown "topsy-turvey-like."
While I do not have a copy of the book Vanye is working on (The Children of Hurin) I do have a copy of the The Return of the Shadow -- somewhere in a packed-away box. Please do continue here, Stormrider, and if it's OK, I'll drop in to add my impressions/ comments, and deep appreciations as you develope the themes!
I think there are a few bits about this first version in The Letters, which I do have at hand, so I'll see what I can find there. Top-of-me-head, I remember the publishers wanted a tale about hobbits, hence, no Aragorn the Numenorean, just "Trotter" the woodsie Haarfoot (or was he a Stoor?). LOL. How does this hobbit-centered version differ from LotR, is it closer to The Hobbit in style, mood, and the author speaking to the readers as a narrator?
Thanks again for starting this line!
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Post by Stormrider on May 24, 2007 11:55:49 GMT -6
The first drafts of the first chapters are more along the style of The Hobbit which is more light hearted.
The black riders still sniff, sway in their saddles, hiss when they speak as in the final but there is an element of unsureness as to what they want.
Gandalf doesn't play much of a role up until Rivendell either. He doesn't warn the hobbits about The Ring, the Ringwraiths, or to be careful on the road. He is only mentioned at the Party as the provider of fireworks. He doesn't even cover up Bingo's disappearance with smoke.
As I get into the chapters about Rivendell, from Christopher's notes, JRRT began to question who Trotter was, how the Rings fit in, who was affected by the Rings and how so, and how does Gloin's tale fit into the story.
At this point, there are also notes about Bingo's desire to put the ring on when the black riders are near--that he must think he wants to do it but is prevented from doing so. Also Gandalf would never have allowed the hobbits to set out if he had known more about the Ring and the Wraiths without warning them or having someone (or himself) accompany them.
So leading up to the Council of Elrond, I can see how JRRT was sorting things out and trying to make sense of the motives driving all the characters. And this looks like it is where the story really begins to take shape.
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Post by Stormrider on May 25, 2007 11:18:47 GMT -6
Tolkien’s questions mentioned above are part of the very end of what Christopher Tolkien calls the First Phase (coming up to the Rivendell chapters).
There are penciled in notes saying there was a missing ring and it was the most precious and powerful of them all. All the other rings (still undecided as to how many and who had them) all had returned to Mordor.
Gilgalad wrestled with the Dark Lord and in the confusion the ring was taken by a flying Elf. Gollum’s ring had fallen from the hand of an Elf when he swam across a river and it betrayed him while fleeing from pursuit. This Elf later became Isildur the Numenorean.
At this point, Tolkien jotted down notes: “Why did the Dark Lord desire it so?” and “In what did its potency consist?” JRRT began to make notes about its power depending on the user and how dangerous the ring would be in whose hands—for example: It just helped Gollum hunt and made him wretched, for Bilbo and Bingo it made them want to wander again, Gandalf would have trebled his power but dared not use it, and an Elf would grow almost as powerful as the Dark Lord but would have become dark.
The question of why the Dark Lord desired the ring still was not resolved and more notes were written in and underlined. Then a note that with the ring, the Dark Lord would be able see where all the others were and he would be the master of their masters, and know all the masters’ secrets.
The Second Phase now began to incorporate some of the above and I’m just starting to read this phase now.
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Post by Andorinha on May 25, 2007 14:10:34 GMT -6
I just read your latest post, Stormrider, more good material to work with! My following post is largely dealing still with some of the themes you introduced in your very first message here.
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RE: Stormrider -- "It is interesting to know that JRRT did not start out with any idea of what he was going to write about."
From the Letters, Tolkien seems indeed to have been very confused as to what he should write. In 1937 he had sent several manuscripts (Father Christmas Letters, and some patchwork pieces of the Silmarillion) to his publishers. They were respectful of these works, but returned them as not being suitable.
Letter19, pp. 25 - 27 From JRRT to Stanley Unwin, 16 December, 1937:
"I did not think any of the stuff I dropped on you filled the bill. But I did want to know whether any of the stuff had any exterior non-personal value. I think it is plain that quite apart from it, a sequel or successor to The Hobbit is called for. I promise to give this thought and attention. ... Mr Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy-tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it [The Silmarillion mythologies] -- so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge. And what more can hobbits do? ... Perhaps a new (if similar) line? Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story? ..."
From this Letter we get a picture of a "bewildered" JRRT, not sure where to start on a new hobbit tale, and with no ideas as to where he might wind up -- just as Stormrider pointed out in her analysis of the openning chapters of The Reurn of the Shadow.
For me, if I am interpreting this letter properly, poor JRRT was just floundering about as he started his sequel. He even seems to be offering a Tom Bombadil story instead of a hobbit tale. I am wondering here if this accounts for the strangeness of FotR's three chapters, 6, 7, and 8? They seem to sit as a separate work within the better connected later narrative, so perhaps The Return of the Shadow can tell us if JRRT really did start out with a Bombadil Tale, and later on, after several revisions, decided to switch the main heroes back to hobbits. But, he also decided not to lose this Bombadil material, and tried to incorporate it into a separate hobbit tale featuring Bingo, Marmaduke, Trotter, et. al., even if it looked a bit out of place.
In 1938 and 1939, some of the Letters seem to show that JRRT was starting to rough out the narrative of his sequel with two main goals: 1. go ahead and make it a story about hobbits rather than one centered on Bombadil; and 2) find some way of tying the new book as firmly as possible into the background mythologies of his beloved Silmarillion.
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Post by Stormrider on May 25, 2007 15:20:29 GMT -6
Andoinha: Thank you for adding in the information you have found in Letters. It is interesting to see the letters that tie into what I am finding in ROTS.
Yes, there is the chapter of Tom Bombadil in about the same sequence of the story and seems somewhat similar in content to what was published. There were notes on JRRT's part regarding the barrow wrights and their relationship, if any, to the black riders. Also the hobbits had not thought of bringing any weapons with them when they left and were not eager to take the ones that Tom Bombadil suggested they take from the barrows.
Tom also told them to mention his name to Butterbur at the Prancing Pony when they arrived there. I don't remember if he did that in the published versions. It seems that Butterbur and Bombadil were acquainted and I seem to remember something along those lines mentioned when we did a poetry study lead by Rivers and Iarwin back at the old website.
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Post by Stormrider on May 25, 2007 15:22:21 GMT -6
Phase Two starts back at Bilbo’s Birthday Party once again.
Tolkien finally settled on Bilbo’s age as 111 but not yet on how old Bingo would be. He was still working through Bingo’s parent’s death in the boat and what age and how long Bingo lived with his grandfather. There is mention that Bingo started visiting Bilbo more and more where they became very close and Bilbo adopted him and made him his heir.
It was important (and there is no reason given why) that the number of guests match the total of Bilbo’s and Bingo’s ages. First 111 + 49 = 160 and finally 111 + 33 = 144. 33 was determined as the coming of age for hobbits.
Now there is mention of Gandalf visiting Bilbo (and Bingo to some extent) from time to time throughout the years. Hobbit gossip blamed Gandalf for influencing Bilbo and Bingo by encouraging the adventurous Took side of them and attributing to their mysterious absences.
Now Bilbo’s youthful appearance comes into play and the fact that he never seems to age or get old.
However, now in a discussion between Gandalf and Bilbo before the party starts, Bilbo mentions that the ring makes him “wearisome-feeling and stretched like butter scraped over bread too thin.” It is interesting here that Bilbo actually WANTS to get rid of the ring and he is tired of Hobbiton and wants to leave. (JRRT’s notes written on the side: dragon gold curse or the ring?)
After the party, Bilbo actually leaves a package for Gandalf with the Ring inside to give to Bingo. Bilbo has no problem giving up the ring.
Christopher stated in Phase One that JRRT tossed around the idea of changing Bingo’s name to Frodo but in Phase Two, he was too accustomed to Bingo and couldn’t do that. However, he decided to drop the “Bolger” part and just leave it “Baggins.”
There is more commentary on a stunned Bingo sitting and staring and not talking to anyone right after Bilbo disappears (still no smoke or flashes) and then he gets up and leaves the party unnoticed among the confusion of the guests.
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Post by Andorinha on May 25, 2007 21:35:26 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider, initial message -- "It doesn't even seem as if he knew in the very beginning chapters that The Ring was evil either."
Re: Stormrider, reply 1 -- "Gandalf doesn't play much of a role up until Rivendell either. He doesn't warn the hobbits about The Ring, the Ringwraiths, or to be careful on the road. He is only mentioned at the Party as the provider of fireworks."
RE: Stormrider, reply 1 -- "There are penciled in notes saying there was a missing ring and it was the most precious and powerful of them all. All the other rings (still undecided as to how many and who had them) all had returned to Mordor."
RE: Stormrider reply 1 -- "At this point, Tolkien jotted down notes: 'Why did the Dark Lord desire it so?' and 'In what did its potency consist?' "
Wow, Stormrider, this IS interesting. On some other topic we were once discussing how closely The Hobbit was (or was not) connected to the Mythologies; and then whether or not JRRT knew that Bilbo's ring was actually a talisman of surpassing doom -- in fact, The One Ring. Your research here seems to pretty conclusively shore up the argument that The Hobbit really did stand as a largely independent novel, only vaguely tied to the Silmarillion material, and a great many of the important themes of LotR had to be re-written back into The Hobbit during its later editions.
I am not really sure why the idea of a "flying Elf" nabbing the ring sounds like a wee, Celtic fairy -- something JRRT says (one of the Letters) he soon came to abhor. Tolkien's Elves would NOT have gauzy wings, nor would they be "thumb-sized" Tinkerbells! LOL!
It is remarkable how different the finished product of the LotR would become by 1955-56. Until you pointed it out, Stormrider, I was unaware just how much JRRT was in the dark as he started this project. The end result reads so smoothly, and is so consistent, it seems as though it must always have existed in its final form. Starting "without a clue," no wonder it took him almost 20 years to craft the published version!
My respect for JRRT has just gone up another notch!
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Post by Stormrider on May 26, 2007 6:49:17 GMT -6
My respect goes up, too. The care he took to make sense of all the loose ends and the patience to go back over and over again tying up his questions until it took shape.
I am not sure yet, but I think he may not have written further than Rivendell until these questions and loose ends were more firmly planned out.
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Post by Stormrider on May 30, 2007 11:27:09 GMT -6
continuing with Phase 2 comments:
The chapter regarding Ancient History is very interesting and includes:
Ted Sandyman and Sam Gamgee (first mention of both these hobbits) discussing a Giant (later to be called a Tree-man) that was seen in the North Moors.
Gandalf and Bingo discussing The Ring while we hear Sam Gamgee working outside in the yard.
Gandalf not sure which Ring Bingo possesses. Gandalf actually takes the Ring and throws it into the fire. There is no comment that Gandalf dare not touch the Ring himself. The flaming elvish script appears and the Ring verse is given. It is the MASTER Ring.
Discussion about hobbits being enslaved by the Necromancer, Dark Lord Sauron, and that he would not really have any use for them except he would rather see miserable hobbits than happy ones.
Gandalf relates the story of Sauron creating many rings of power and giving them out to all people to ensnare them. There is now established there were 9 for Men who became Ringwraiths and serve the Dark Lord and they are his most terrible servants.
Then the story of how it was lost. Gilgalad (the last great elf) and Orendil (King of the Island--this must be the dawning of thoughts regarding Numenor) march against Sauron and both die. Isildur, Orendil's son, cuts ring from Sauron's hand and Sauron flees to Mirkwood.
Isildur is the flying elf--he was flying from his enemies--not flying in the sky! Goblins chased his army when they left Mordor. They came to a large river (not named) and he slipped the ring on, swam, it slipped off, goblins saw him and killed him.
"A fish took the Ring and was filled with a madness, and swam up stream leaping over rocks and up waterfalls until it cast itself upon a bank, and spat out the Ring and died." I guess it spat it out back into the river.
This is followed by Gollum's story but he is call Dígol and is very similar to the original published story. But now Gandalf mentions the longevity given to the possessor the the Ring and becoming wearisome and tormenting to the wearer and may start to fade.
Gandalf states now that Bilbo was meant to have the Ring and therefore, Bingo. Comments about the Ring getting lost and turning up in strange places.
Gandalf mentions he found Gollum who mentioned he had very powerfull friends and who would help get his Ring back. He never said it was Mordor and Sauron who were his friends directly, but Gandalf suspected Gollum went to Mordor and Sauron now knows about hobbits, the Shire, and Baggins.
Bingo makes his comment that it was a pity that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance and Gandalf's comment that it was pity that prevented Bilbo from doing it.
Gollum is with the wood elves now who treat him kindly since they can't cure him. Gollum might prove useful for good before the end.
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Post by Andorinha on May 31, 2007 17:34:11 GMT -6
1. RE Stormrider: "Isildur is the flying elf--he was flying from his enemies--not flying in the sky! Goblins chased his army when they left Mordor. They came to a large river (not named) and he slipped the ring on, swam, it slipped off, goblins saw him and killed him." (bold mine)
LOL! A "fleeing" flying Elf! Well, that's better, makes more sense read that way given JRRT's fairly early "anti-fairy" taste!
2. RE Stormrider: "Gandalf actually takes the Ring and throws it into the fire. There is no comment that Gandalf dare not touch the Ring himself." (boldface your's!)
This is interesting, because the book version FotR, p. 58 in hb version, also has Gandalf handle the Ring with no reluctance at all: "Frodo took it from his breeches-pocket, where it was clasped to a chain that hung from his belt. He unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard. It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it. Gandalf held it up. ... [then] threw it suddenly into the middle of a glowing corner of the fire."
I think it is only the movie version that has Gandalf afraid to even touch the Ring?
Opps, dinner call! I'll be back!
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Post by Andorinha on May 31, 2007 19:43:07 GMT -6
Yum, dinner was great...
3. RE Stormrider: "This is followed by Gollum's story but he is call Dígol and is very similar to the original published story."
Aha! Thank You so very much Storm! A long time ago I suddenly thought that it might be worthwhile to check up on the names Deagol and Smeagol. I suspected they might be Old English, and, by golly, they were.
Dígol, or Diegol or Deagol = secret, hidden, concealed.
smeagan, Smeagol = penetrating, look closely into, investigate, find.
So, Deagol = the one who conceals, the hider; and Smeagol = the one who finds, the finder. Now this always bothered me, because the hobbit Deagol "finds" the Ring in the river, while Smeagol takes the Ring, concealing it under the mountains. So the names are reversed in LotR. Why? From your readings, Stormrider, it appears that Gollum was originally and properly named Dígol, the one who conceals the Ring. That makes sense according to the function of the hobbit Gollum, he hid the Ring. But somewhere along the way, JRRT must have decided to have two hobbits, one to find the Ring, and then Gollum to hide it. So why change the names? Maybe Smee-a-gol sounded more slime-like, and villanous, so JRRT switched the names and Gollum, who really hides the Ring, got the name of "finder," Smeagol? Are there any footnotes that might explain why JRRT switched the names?
Wow, this is getting to be, for me, downright educational. I'm really glad you started this topic Stormrider! THANKS!
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Post by Stormrider on May 31, 2007 21:35:19 GMT -6
There is an * after Dígol and a footnote that says basically what you just did:
I wonder if there will be an explanation for changing the name in the next book of this series. But in the Index, I only find the quote above and Christopher says:
I skimmed through the index and some of the pages referenced for Dígol, Deagol, Smeagol, and Gollum and the only thing I see in The Treason of Isengard which is the next book is this:
There looks to be some interesting information regarding this Gollum/Deagol/Smeagol story development but I am not that far yet and don't want to get ahead of myself!
I will keep my eyes open for any other mentions of Dígol, Deagol, and Smeagol and why JRRT changed the names. I am not very good at rushing thru passages looking for things and I very well could have missed it.
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 1, 2007 21:07:28 GMT -6
What you've already come up with is just great. So, if you would, please do keep an eye open for any more material on this topic, but only as and when you get to it in the normal course of your study.
Meanwhile, I'll look through the Letters again, sometimes it has very interesting sidelight bits tucked into the oddest places.
Thanks!
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jun 2, 2007 6:38:20 GMT -6
It is amazing how JRRT finally got his story out. I would love for another story to come out, but be more like the Hobbit.....like how his publishers originally planned.
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