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Post by fanuidhol on Nov 30, 2007 15:23:51 GMT -6
This is a thoroughly delightful story. Like The Hobbit, this tale started as something Tolkien told to amuse his children. Hammond and Scull, in JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide: Reader's Guide estimate that it made its start in the late 20's. Tolkien wrote it down in hopes of publishing, however, it needed to go through a number of revisions, each one adding more humor and appeal to adults, before it was finally accepted. The 50th anniversary edition (1999), edited by the same Hammond and Scull, contains the previous versions. Alas, I don't have that one. Tolkien admitted that it was one of the only stories that did not touch Middle-earth. "It was kept out of 'Farmer Giles' with an effort, but stopped the continuation." Letter #124. Has anybody read it? Fan
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Post by Vanye on Nov 30, 2007 23:37:29 GMT -6
why is this under non-Tolkien? I was looking for a comment I saw about The Golden Compass, but can't find it? I have read the whole trilogy-His Dark Materials-and enjoyed it very much & POSSIBLE SPOILER saw it as a warning against blindly folllowing anyone. Vanye P.S. I have also read Farmer Giles & all the rest of the stories in the Tolkien Reader. It's been a while so will have to read them again before I could say anything sensible about them.
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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 1, 2007 6:53:00 GMT -6
Vanye, I did a search for "Golden Compass" and found it under "Movies". This board isn't "non Tolkien", it is "non-LotR writings". Hope this helps, Fan
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 1, 2007 8:45:11 GMT -6
Like Vanye, I've read Farmer Giles, but it has been a long time since I approached it. I remember it most for an associated fight I had back in, hmm, 1970, I think, with a young lady who insisted "Giles" was pronounced "Guiles" rather than "Jiles." Unfortunately, the only available copy of this book was hers. She refused to lend it me again...
The copy I have now is the "illustrated" 1979 edition, Pauline Baynes' art. Hmmm, I wonder if JRRT ever did any of his own illustrations for FG?
Yes, this piece is definitely not a Middle-earth writing, Anglo-Saxon and Latin mixed names, set in "the midmost parts of the Island of Britain..." It might be interesting to see if, nonetheless, there are "subliminal" ME influences in the text.
I'll start a re-read now while I wait for vol. 3 of the Golden Compass.
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 11, 2007 18:16:09 GMT -6
Ah, just finished my re-read of "Farmer Giles," done in conjunction with selected bits of Frank Stenton's "Anglo-Saxon England," trying to see how the social system/ dynamics of FG tallies with the "real" AS world.
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 12, 2007 6:53:55 GMT -6
I just discovered that I have The Tolkien Reader and lo and behold, Farmer Giles of Ham is one of the stories in it! I have never read this book!
Other stories included in the book are: The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth, Beorhthelm's Son, Tree and Leaf, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.
As soon as I finish the last book in the Shannara series (getting close to the end), I will read Farmer Giles and then the other stories in this book.
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 20, 2007 11:05:40 GMT -6
"Tolkien: Man and Myth," by Joseph Pearce has a good deal to say concerning the secondary works by Tolkien -- "Leaf by Niggle," "Smith of Wootton Major," "The Father Christmas Letters," and "Farmer Giles of Ham." Amazon Dot Com also has some "used" copies for sale at a price I can easily afford. Has anyone read this book, and would it be an appropriate source for discussion material on Farmer Giles?
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Post by Fangorn on Dec 20, 2007 14:11:40 GMT -6
I have an old tattered paperback called "Smith of Wooton Major and Farmer Giles of Ham" It also contained the work: "Leaf by Niggle". I read them a long time back. I am sure they were sufficient, but I do not recall any reason to revisit them.
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 20, 2007 17:31:31 GMT -6
Farmer Giles surprised me. It wasn't anything like I thought it would be. I thought it would be about farm life in the country and it turned out being a giant and dragon chasing story set in the early years of England (or a country very like England).
The dog was a real sissy! He tried to be important by hiding in Farm Giles' shadow.
The sword, Tailbiter, must have been empowered with a lot of magic for it to make the dragon obedient. I just can't see Smaug cowering at the foot of Farmer Giles while being confronted by just a sword and a man in sewn together chainlink mail. But this dragon, Chrysphylax, didn't seem very fierce at all.
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 20, 2007 18:14:51 GMT -6
The version of FGH I have leaps immediately into the body of the tale, no explanation of when, why it was written, or what JRRT was trying to accomplish when he wrote it. I remember being disappointed with my first reading (perhaps like Fangorn?) as I thought it would be (should be?) more in line with LotR and The Hobbit.
I think I'm more interested now in approaching the story on its own merits, but, frankly, I have no idea where to start. Fanuidhol mentioned that the original outline text may go back to very early times, possibly pre-Hobbit, others (Wikipedia) mention a first version dated to 1937, post-Hobbit. Fanuidhol further suggests that it may have been written as one of the "simple" entertainment pieces he did for his children when they were quite young, and publication was not really on his mind as he created this work. I suppose it eventually was published (1949) as part of the effort to find something, anything, that would get the publishers off his back while he finished LotR?
So, Fanuidhol, if you are still out there, do you have any more detailed background for FGH, any handy (=cheap) sources that deal directly with this piece; or what further material can you feed us from Hammond and Scull? Meanwhile, I'll check my copy of the Letters...
I think you've got a good means of starting this discussion, Stormrider, by simply comparing/ contrasting the story and its characters to those found in the Hobbit/ LotR. Giles does not seem to be a normative dragon-slayer -- no Sigurd or Beowulf, or Bard -- but more like a Samwise Gamgee heroic figure? Is this the message?
So where is that "cloudy-headed" person when some expert discussion-leading is most required? (Big grin, as I instinctively duck) What did you have in mind here, Fanuidhol?
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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 20, 2007 22:07:56 GMT -6
Funny, funny, Andorinha, but no ducking required. As I came to Tolkien's Ring this evening, I said to myself, "I've got to get back to the FGH thread". Lo and behold, there was some sort of mental telepathy going on. LOL BTW I'm in the "Jiles" camp with you.
Andorinha wrote: "Tolkien: Man and Myth," by Joseph Pearce has a good deal to say concerning the secondary works by Tolkien -- "Leaf by Niggle," "Smith of Wootton Major," "The Father Christmas Letters," and "Farmer Giles of Ham." Amazon Dot Com also has some "used" copies for sale at a price I can easily afford. Has anyone read this book, and would it be an appropriate source for discussion material on Farmer Giles?"
I happen to have Tolkien: Man and Myth. I read it some years ago and remember that Pearce was very "catholic" in his interpretation. I did learn alot from it, because of or in spite of the religious view. Pearse compares Tolkien to GK Chesterton, and specifically FGH to The Flying Inn and The Napoleon of Notting Hill. The one thing of significance, in my opinion, is that Pearse calls FGH the closest of all Tolkien's writing to 'Chestertonian Fantasy'.
JRRT Companion: Reader's Guide info pages 289-293: HISTORY The first extant manuscript suggest that it was written in the late 20's. Roverandom* and the early parts of The Hobbit were written at about the same time. This version has a "parental" voice and "often put in a personal context" ie 'If the giant had trodden on our garden'. It lacked the Latin references, philological jokes, etc. In the early 30's there was a slight revision written. The events were placed definitely in the past. In 1936, Tolkien submitted it to Allen and Unwin who thought it was too short. (The Hobbit had already been accepted for publication). In 1938, JRRT enlarged the story, hoping to have it published. He had bills to pay and LotR was slow going. This version was 50% longer and he had read it to The Lovelace Society (an essay club). The jokes were present, characters developed, etc. The 'Little Kingdom' was placed at the modern town of Thame and Worminghall was present. The "four wise clerks" were the editors of the OED. JRRT noted that the story had taken on an adult, satiric flavor. Publishers had difficulty categorizing it since it seemed to be a fairy-tale for adults. Needless to say, it wasn't published. Some early work was done on a sequel in order to give more length. In 1947, Allen and Unwin decided to publish it with illustrations, and Tolkien added the forward and made a few revisions. The 50th anniversary edition contains the earlier versions and the notes for the sequel.
I'll have to get to the CRITICISM section of the Reader's Guide in another post. Fan *Roverandum contains references to Tolkien's early version of Middle-earth, but that is another post for a later time.
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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 21, 2007 6:46:37 GMT -6
JRRT Companion: Readers Guide, pages 293 - 294 CRITICISM Early reviews of the work were few. Critics had difficulty categorizing it, as was warned by publishers early on. Later reviews (after LotR) tended to read more into it than might be there. Hammond and Scull did not name reviewers specifically.
Katharyn W Crabbe, in JRR Tolkien, made the following comments: Giles is a traditional fairy-tale hero even if a bit unconventional. He has similarities to Bilbo -- prudence, discretion, and reverence for the past. With his luck and wits, any ordinary person might be a prince. I find the next comment very interesting. Steve Linley in 'Farmer Giles: Beowulf for the Critics?' Amon Hen #98 (July 89) reasonably argues that FGH was a lighthearted reply to the scholars that he criticized in 'Beowulf and the Critics'. Hammond and Scull also mention a book called Leaves from the Tree: JRR Tolkien's Shorter Fiction (1991) but, do not give details.
I found FGH discussed in Master of Middle-earth by Paul Kocher. Since it was published in 1972 and without access to all that we know today, it is not valuable to any source study. Kocher makes a comment though that I like: "Farmer Giles is simply a vacation from the 'things higher...deeper...darker' which [LotR and Silm] treat." Fan
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Post by Stormrider on Dec 21, 2007 7:07:37 GMT -6
G.K. Chesterton was one of the authors displayed at the Wade Center at Wheaton College IL. Desi and I went to visit our friend, Laura, who works there. Here is the thread where I posted our visit: tolkiensring.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=News&action=display&thread=1189209810G.K.C hesterton was the author who wrote some detective stories as well as fantasy. He was another one of the Inklings so I can see how J.R.R. Tolkien may have been influenced by him while writing FGH. I haven't read any Chesterton myself and may look into some of his works. Fan: FGH did seem more of an adult knights in armor story than a story for children, however, I could see how he may have started out telling this to his children. Funny how the "real" knights of the kingdom took off running when they were confronted by the dragon. FG stood his ground. I imagine Tailbiter gave him courage where others had none.
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 21, 2007 20:35:27 GMT -6
Thanks Fanuidhol!
FGH is rapidly becoming, in my estimation, a most complex bit of writing -- it went through so many revisions between 1926 and 1949 that it would be difficult to figure what events in JRRT's life influenced it, and just what his purpose may have been in putting it together. I guess we'll wind up talking about multiple influences, multiple reasons etc. ...
From Perry Bramlett's "I Am in Fact a Hobbit," I can add the following to your grand synopsis:
"Tolkien first told this 'improvised tale' to his children sometime after early 1926, when the family took shelter under a bridge during a rainstorm that had interrupted a picnic. The first draft was handwritten (26 pages) in the late 1920's (with 'Daddy' as the narrator and many nameless characters); a revised and slightly expanded second draft probably was written (the first typescript) in the early or mid-1930s, with 'the family jester' taking 'Daddy's' place." p. 37
"In early 1937, after the Hobbit had been accepted, Allen & Unwin asked Tolkien to submit other children's stories he was writing. In August 1938 he sent them Mr. Bliss, Farmer Giles, and his story about the dog 'Roverandom.' (20) As with the Hobbit eleven-year-old Raynor Unwin read Farmer Giles (in 1937) and called it 'well written and amusing' and recommended that it be published in one volume with 'Roverandom,' adding that it needed illustrations. But due to the success of the Hobbit, Allen and Unwin wanted a sequel with more hobbits..." p. 37
"Unwin finally decided to publish the book in 1947, and in July Tolkien revised the manuscript, adding corrections and changes 'in both style and narrative.' He also added a "mock foreward" (the earliest version from October 1946), in which he pretended to be the editor and translator of an ancient document; he would do this again in the first edition of the Lord of the Rings and the Adventures of Tom Bombadil." and "Some Tolkien scholars think that this 'mock foreword' is a satire of his famous lecture, 'Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics' (1936)." p. 39
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GK Chesterton, eh? Hmm, a mighty Catholic, I am told, cuts a large figure in English literature, even shows up briefly as a "bad influence" in E. Waugh's Brideshead Revisited. I'll have to search out some of his books to get an idea of what the "Chestertonian" influence is all about. Apparently Chesterton's books brought C.S. Lewis back into the Xtian fold?
Thanks for the GKC background, Stormrider. Putting this information from you and Fan together now should set me on a profitable tack!
Nyuck-nyuck-nyuck, I'll be back! Meanwhile, does anyone have any suggestions on how to approach FGH in a discussion format? Any formal outline of topics, or do we just jump in wherever?
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Post by fanuidhol on Dec 22, 2007 5:55:47 GMT -6
Andorinha wrote: "FGH is rapidly becoming, in my estimation, a most complex bit of writing -- it went through so many revisions between 1926 and 1949 that it would be difficult to figure what events in JRRT's life influenced it, and just what his purpose may have been in putting it together. I guess we'll wind up talking about multiple influences, multiple reasons etc. ..."
I don't have time to really go into this at the moment, but I'll let you in on a gut feeling: I think FGH (in its revisions) is closely tied to 'On Fairy-stories'. It comes from the same timeframe, doesn't it? Fan
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