The Ainulindalë #2

[Andorinha]

Hi Fan! Thanks for the quote. I did not want to use it myself because it has been touted in the Encyclopaedia of Arda as a "definition" of Flame Imperishable -- when, I think, it is nothing of the sort. Check my line of logic here, if you will -- what makes sense to me often seems arrant nonsense to others (surely THEY are wrong, can't be ME!) sigh...

Here, I'm wondering if we need to be very careful about using the material in the HOME volumes -- quite often what we get is Christopher Tolkien's personal gloss on various terms and matters. The quotation you supply us is actually a footnote (#11) to the JRRT text. It is NOT a "definitive" statement by JRRT himself, it is not even an authoritative statement from Chris, but represents (as he tells us himself) his "take" on the matter. Hence the use of the phrase "This appears to mean..." (emphasis mine)

In fact, as I read this passage, Chris is telling us that even HE does not, for certain, know precisely what his father meant the Flame Imperishable to be. What Chris does tell us, is exactly nothing more than what we as readers can (and did) find in the texts ourselves. I noted in the passage that Chris is also a bit worried about the implications of this Flame, especially its relationship to Eru -- is it an integral part of him; can it really be FULLY detatched; and, inferentially, can Melkor actually use it if he can ever find it? Chris eventually shrugs it all off by calling it a "mystery" -- how can Eru (as God almighty) be both independent of his creation and yet be simultaneously "indwelling" within it? ah, "A Mystery!"

Sigh, a "Mystery" (something not to be understood, but taken on faith) is not much of a definition...

One interesting "guess" (no better or worse than mine and Christopher Tolkien's) tries to equate the Flame Imperishable with the third person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit. I do not know enough of the RC faith and dogmas to determine if this is a "far-out-there" interpretation, or if it makes sense in an RC sort of way? Does the "Holy Spirit" ("Holy Ghost" to those raised up in the King James tradition) ever act as the breath of life, the stuff that quickens an idea into a physical reality? Etymologically, Latin "spiritus" (Espiritu Sanctus) and the Greek pneuma both mean "breath," the stuff of life (at least to O2 absorbing individuals on our planet). But does "flame" ever equate with "breath"? Maybe metaphorically? Maybe for Zoroastrians?

So, unless there is an actual explanation from JRRT available on some overlooked scrap of paper in some dusty archive, we may never have a genuine definition for "Flame Imperishable."

Meet you out back by the merry-go-round after school, bring your warrior spirit -- but this time, no brass knuckles, and no creeping hobbit-helpers with nasty knives!

[Stormrider]

Well, reading these last few posts from Andorinha and Fanuidhol, I was going to say that the Flame Imperishable did seem similar to the Holy Spirit until I refreshed my memory with the links below.

The Spirit is actually a person, not a thing. Its purpose is to help those filled with The Holy Spirit to tell others about Jesus through the use of the Gifts of the Spirit and the Fruits of the Spirit

Main link: www.theholyspirit.com/
The Person of the Holy Spirit: www.theholyspirit.com/HolySpiritPerson.asp
Gifts and Fruits: www.theholyspirit.com/HolySpiritGiftsFruits.asp
Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit

The Flame Imperishable does not seem like it is telling about a savior however, it seems to be a part of Eru that Gandalf held. Didn't he say something about being the wielder of the Flame Imperishable when he faced the Balrog. That claim always has seemed to baffle us.

[Andorinha]

Woke up this morning, late, nothing to do today, started re-reading the passage of note 11, eek, turns out there are two sets of commentary notes, those by Christopher start on p. 357, so, as you point out, Fanuidhol, the first set of "notes" are indeed by JRRT. Does this alter anything (besides teaching me the ever useful
lesson of reading by entire chapters rather than selected passages...)?

This is even more interesting then, and I think it doubly supports my contention, that we have NO definition offered by JRRT here. He is himself speculating on the Flame Imperishable as if even he does not fully know what he wants it to be, and is not certain of the ramifications its use might have. Again the phrase "This appears to mean..." stands out as rather an odd thing for an author to say. Apparently, JRRT did not himself fully comprehend the Flame Imperishable. But he did at least understand that there was a contradiction in having the Flame be part of Eru and yet, at the same time "divisible" from him; and he did understand the secondary contradiction that this forces between having a god who is both "independent" and above his own works, while simultaneously "indwelling" within them.

RE: Fan's -- "JRRT did give us a definition for "Flame Imperishable" (if only I understood it)."

Fan, I think your not being able to understand this passage underscores the fact that it is NOT a definition*, and it reflects JRRT's own uncertainty here -- quite frankly, JRRT had not yet worked out a consistent understanding of the concept of the Flame Imperishable even for himself.

*One of the definitions of "definition" is its ability to simplify and EXPLAIN, to convey understanding. If a passage does not serve this function, if it only confuses, or leaves matters in a state of ambiguity -- it is NOT a definition.

Perhaps taking a broader view might help here. As I understand it, the entire volume of "Morgoth's Ring" represents JRRT's late-in-life attempts to review, revise, and rewrite his entire mythology. So, as I see it, we have Tolkien poring over his first books and stories trying to reduce them to a more consistent, logical, unified mass. He toys with the idea of abandoning the origin of the Orcs from the Elves, giving them Men as ancestors instead; then he reviews the Ainulindale, and the contradictions it contains worries him. He sees that his use of the Flame Imperishable does not make sense, if it is "with" Eru, how can it later be divided from him and stand independently at the heart of Arda? Is his creator God to be inside his own creation, or above-beyond it? He ponders, how to correct this? Does he make the Flame Imperishable a separate entity of its own, something along the lines of the "Holy Spirit" of the Trinity? Maybe. He did have a tendency in his last years to try to make his mythology ever less Nordic pagan, and ever more congruent with Christianity, so tying the Flame Imperishable to the "Holy Spirit" might work... But, he died before he could ever get beyond the point of simply remarking to himself in note 11 that, as it now stood, the only way to understand the Flame Imperishable was to see it as an UNDEFINED principle, and perhaps as an undefinable Mystery.

[Andorinha]

Hullo Stormrider!

RE Storm's -- "The Flame Imperishable does not seem like it is telling about a savior however, it seems to be a part of Eru that Gandalf held. Didn't he say something about being the wielder of the Flame Imperishable when he faced the Balrog. That claim always has seemed to baffle us."

Thanks for the URLs on "Holy Spirit!" I think that the key concept here of the Flame Imperishable is its ability to translate thoughts into physical reality, and I don't see (except MAYBE metaphorically) that the RC "Holy Spirit" serves this function. I also never got the impression that JRRT was viewing the Flame Imperishable in a personified fashion, but given his own uncertainty regarding the stuff, maybe he would have eventually revised the original Ainulindale to make the two (the flame and the Holy Spirit) more congruent. It might fit in with his tendency late in life to try ever more fully to Christianize his own mythology.

Yeah, on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, Gandalf mentions: "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass!" (FotR, p. 344)

Here the alternate term "Secret Fire" is used rather than "Flame Imperishable," but I think from the context in the Ainulindale that it is fairly well established that Secret Fire and Flame Imperishable are synonymous. So I think what Gandalf says is that he is a servant of the Secret Fire, but this may not mean he has any direct contact with it, or any ability to control its use or shape reality with it -- he merely serves this Fire. On the other hand, he can/ does have the ability to use ("wield") the power inherent in the Sun, "the flame of Anor." So does this flame of the Sun have any direct link with the Secret Fire? I would think not, but this is not clearly stated here. I believe we have two separate flames here (three if we count the dark fire of Udûn!), one has Gandalf's allegiance (The Secret Flame), and the other, the Sun Fire, he can wield as a tool or weapon.

[Stormrider]

Andorinha:

Thanks for going and looking up the Gandalf/Balrog passage. That clears that up! I always wondered what the Flame of Anor was and did not realize it was the Sun. So Gandalf is a servant of the Secret Fire (Flame Imperishable) and wielder of the Flame of Anor (the Sun). I would not think they were the same fire either.

Your statement:

I think that the key concept here of the Flame Imperishable is its ability to translate thoughts into physical reality, and I don't see (except MAYBE metaphorically) that the RC "Holy Spirit" serves this function.

Bold is my doing. This is correct in regards to the Holy Spirit's ability.

The way JRRT seems to use the Flame Imperishable is more in conjunction with the SECOND person in the Holy Trinity, Jesus, as I commented in Reply Two of this thread:

The Gospel of John (1:1 thru 1:5)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made: without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

my bolding again.

God created the world through the second person, The Son. The Son is one with The Father. This is similar to JRRT's use of the Ainur to do the creating for him but not similar because The Son is part of the Holy Trinity which is all ONE God. The Ainur were holy beings created as individuals by Eru to create the world using his thoughts.

So were the Ainur filled with the Flame Imperishable as the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit? Once they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they had more courage, strength, and determination to bring the Gospel of Jesus to the World. JRRT did not write it that way at all. The Ainur were created to turn Eru's thoughts into music and in turn into Arda--more like Jesus except there were many of them.

So if Eru can send his Flame Imperishable into the center of the earth, is our own Earth flaming inside or is it solid minerals and ores? So where is H e l l? Is it deep inside Earth? I don't think the Flame Imperishable was meant to be associated with H e l l either! What a twist of my thought.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: "So were the Ainur filled with the Flame Imperishable as the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit? Once they were filled with the Holy Spirit, they had more courage, strength, and determination to bring the Gospel of Jesus to the World. JRRT did not write it that way at all. The Ainur were created to turn Eru's thoughts into music and in turn into Arda--more like Jesus except there were many of them.

"So if Eru can send his Flame Imperishable into the center of the earth, is our own Earth flaming inside or is it solid minerals and ores? So were is H e l l? Is it deep inside Earth? I don't think the Flame Imperishable was meant to be associated with H e l l either! What a twist of my thought."

LOL, Fanuidhol and I are arguing some of these same points on another forum. I think Fan believes that Tolkien DID adequately define the Flame Imperishable in note 11 of Morgoth's Ring p 344, while I maintain that this passage does not usefully define anything, and leaves the matter open to such questions as you have posted here.

Does a spark of the Flame Imperishable remain inside each living, created thing? Is it somehow akin to the concept of of the soul? Or does Eru merely touch the "thought Ainur" with his Imperishable Flame, and that touch is enough to bring them into existence as independent beings whether or not a bit of the Flame stays inside them?

Likewise, how are we to understand the presence of the Flame Imperishable within the World? Is it only metaphorically at the heart of the World, or is it really a substance there that burns at the core of our planet? Or, does "World" mean the entire created universe, at least our solar system, as in one of the Letters JRRT does define Arda as the solar system, not just the planet earth. In this sense the Sun would be at the heart of the "World" system, and maybe the Sun would then be the Flame Imperishable? I do not think this is actually what JRRT had in mind, but in the absence of a real definition of Flame Imperishable, it leaves the matter open to such speculation.

Does the Flame Imperishable equate in some way with the fires of Hell, hmmm, that is a "twist," maybe in the same way that the hobbits came to distrust the sea* and the western passages toward Valinor as the route of death, the place where only the dead mortals may enter, and so came to fear the westermost lands -- maybe a trip to the core of the world would also be regarded as a passage to death?

See! This is why I say the Flame Imperishable has never really been defined, Tolkien left it open to so much speculation!

______________

* "... and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death..." (FotR, Prologue, p. 16 hb ver.)

[Andorinha]

Stormrider, Fan has found a most peculiar passage in the early version LOTR that mentions Secret Fire in a context similar to your musings about the SF being at the center of the earth as a geological element. Fan also mentioned that I should re-post the rest of her messages here, I'll check them first for the blatant errors they MUST contain, and prepare suitable corrections before I repeat Fan's obviously mistaken interpretations. Though she does mention one more source (C. Kilby letters to/ from Tolkien) that talks about Holy Spirit = Flame Imperishable.

_________________________

Fanuidhol wrote: "Gee Whiz, Dagor. I dusted off those old boxing gloves of mine and now you're telling me that you don't want to meet behind the merry-go-round to finish this in the only way I see possible. Oh well, back they go into the box with my first Barbie Doll and that love letter I got in second grade from Raymond. And
back up into the attic...."

My reply:

OK, Fan, I was trying to do you a favor here, sigh, trying to spare you yet another public "drubbing." Toss Raymond and Barbie out of the way, lace on dem gloves!

The mere fact that Tolkien could at one point in the composition of LOTR view "The Secret Fire" as bubbling up under Mount Doom seems very suggestive that he never had for himself a proper definition of the stuff, if we assume Secret Fire to be fully synonymous with Flame Imperishable as the Ainulindale of The Silmarillion has it. If the Secret Fire is FI, and it bubbles to the surface in Mordor, would this not have given Sauron access to the very stuff of creation? Wisely, JRRT deleted this identification of Secret Fire from the text before publication, otherwise, Sauron could have used the SF/ FI to bring his own thoughts into an independent physical reality. Tolkien would then have had to explain that although the SF/ FI was available, for some reason Sauron could not use it for any purpose other than the power source of his One Ring-- more clumsy revision...

I believe, long ago, we once discussed the nature of the Rings of Power, and I raised the possibility back then that all of the Rings were mere conduits channeling the power of some central principle. Here with the Bingo passage, it seems Tolkien was (at one stage in LOTR's composition) toying with that exact concept. The Secret Fire of Mount Doom was the birthplace of the One Ring, and the other Elven Rings might be supposed to have a similar root in the SF, though from other volcanic vents. This use of the Secret Fire would, of course, be inconsistent with its earlier use as the Flame Imperishable, the stuff of creation that is "Mysteriously" WITH and yet detachable from Eru. As late as the composition of the early version LOTR (Bingo instead of Frodo), the idea of the Secret Fire (presumably still synonymous with the Flame Imperishable?) is quite fluid, quite without a true definition.

I also feel even more confident now, that the passage on p. 345 of HOME X is not a definition, not even an attempt at one, but merely a note of inquiry to himself, pointing out the way in which he used FI back in the 1920s. It stands as a reminder to himself that if he were to produce a publishable version of his mythology, this was one more inconsistency that he would have to resolve.

******

Standing alone, dawn. A breeze, thin and cold stirs the swings, and sets the merry-go-round into a complaining whine, rotating slowly. A dark figure of menace approaches, nail-studded gloves upon its hands...

[Stormrider]

WOW! I am agast!

I never thought about the Flame Imperishable as being the fire of Mt. Doom! Awesome idea but very scary. As you mentioned, that would give Sauron access to the Flame Imperishable--something Melkor had covetted in the beginning of time.

If it was the FI inside Mt. Doom, Sauron forged his Rings from that fire! What other kind of fiery forge would have been able to create something so powerful and controlling if not from a godly fire? Melkor twisted the Elves (or Men) into Orcs, why couldn't his lieutenant, Sauron, be able to twist his little bit of FI into something creative for himself?

Does Satan have the power to twist the fires of h e l l to his use, too?

***
Say, what other forum are you two visiting? Maybe I would like to join that discussion over there. I also belong to Council of Elrond but have not signed up at TORN even though I have often thought about doing it. It seems not much goes on around here anymore except for when you two and Fredegar post something. I was actually thinking about closing up TR for lack of interest. Gasp!

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: Say, what other forum are you two visiting? Maybe I would like to join that discussion over there. I also belong to Council of Elrond but have not signed up at TORN even though I have often thought about doing it. It seems not much goes on around here anymore except for when you two and Fredegar post something. I was actually thinking about closing up TR for lack of interest. Gasp!

__________________

The other forum is located, again, at B&N.

bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/bn/board?board.id=tolkien

But it is a very "shaky" place. Already the strict Tolkien board has been discontinued, and on the 17th or maybe it's the 25 of September, the discussions will be dropped to the archive, dead-letter section. Supposedly users who have the ability to find the old discussions will be able to add new messages, but most likely there will be little traffic there.

Meanwhile, a few of the current discussions will show up on a general Fantasy and Science Fiction board, but it may be hard to keep track of the Tolkien discussions there as they tend to get lost among all the other SciFi topics.

bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/bn/board?board.id=fsf

bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/bn/board/message?message.uid=223530#U223530

There were never more than 4 or 5 active participants, and some of those like Fanuidhol and myself (Dagor) tend to fade-in-and-out. In fact, I was just getting ready to kill off Dagor when Fan showed up and things started getting interesting again. So, the B&N format may not last much longer. We'll see.

There was some hope that the B&N current posters might come here for a more permanent forum, maybe that will add a bit of life to this old place? Sigh, hate to see TR here close down, it's one of the most long lasting, serious Tolkien Discussion fora left on the net, but maybe it has had its run?

[fanuidhol]

On topic first:
I might have been too hasty in thinking that the "Fiery Mountain" with its "Cracks of Earth" that expose the "Secret Fire" happen to be in Mordor under Sauron's nose. JRRT does not give its location for quite some time. Nor does he state at this point that the Rings were made there. Page 82 Return of the Shadow is the only entry for SF/FI in the "cracks" so he might have abandoned this possibility quickly.

Off Topic:
Andorinha, it sounds like you "almost" missed me.
"ready to kill off Dagor when Fan showed up and things started getting interesting again."

Personally, I'd love to get our B&N posters over here. I did give the URL out in a post, but haven't actively recruited...
Stormrider, if you want want to try to revive TR, I'll put my efforts into encouraging people to come over. And I'll post here more.

Andorinha, do you know anything about that "dratted" Prunesquallor over at B&N that has a remarkedly similar style to yourself? Lots of good posts that could be moved here to TR, too.

Fan

[Stormrider]

I really hate to close down TR but the posting has diminished so much as the years have gone by--especially after the PJ LOTR movies have been completed and time has passed since the last one was out in the theater.

I was hoping there would be more interest with The Hobbit Movie coming out, but that is still rather slow in development. After the re-write and casting of the roles start, I would think more people would be interested in talking about it.

But if you two know of more people who would be interested in continuing discussions and can try and revive some activity, I won't give up yet! I can't say as I've been posting a whole lot either since I started on the equestrian drill team and am now making soap.

Perhaps I should send out some kind of memberwide revival email to all the members at this new proboards forum and from the old MSN forum to try to stir up more interest. I really hate to shut everything down and lose contact with all my friends!

[Stormrider]

Sept 15, 2008 16:23:06 GMT -6 fanuidhol said:

On topic first:
I might have been too hasty in thinking that the "Fiery Mountain" with its "Cracks of Earth" that expose the "Secret Fire" happen to be in Mordor under Sauron's nose. JRRT does not give its location for quite some time. Nor does he state at this point that the Rings were made there. Page 82 Return of the Shadow is the only entry for SF/FI in the "cracks" so he might have abandoned this possibility quickly.

I looked up that quote since you have caught my attention. Funny I didn't catch it when I was reading and posting about The Return of the Shadow a while ago! Gandalf speaking to Bingo (Frodo) about the Ring not being easy to get rid of now:

"They say only dragonfire can melt them -- but I wonder if that is not a legend, or at any rate if there are any dragons now left in which the old fire is hot enough. I fancy you would have to find one of the Cracks of Earth in the depths of the Fiery Mountain, and drop it down into the Secret Fire, if you really wanted to destroy it."

The Balrog was the "Flame of Udun". What is Udun? Could it be h e l l ? Quite different from being the Flame Imperishable or the Secret Fire. The Balrog is shadow and fire, but there must be other fire from Udun that Sauron used in the Cracks of Doom to forge the Ring of Power.

[Andorinha]

Hmmm, thought Fan would have had the answers ready, but I'll take a stab at it since there's been no other reply.

RE Udûn: In some of the index notations of the various HOME volumes Udûn is given as an equivalent of Utummno which translates as "The Deep-hidden,"the underground portion of Morgoth's fortress in the north. The above ground portion was called Thangorodrim, "The Mountains of Oppression." So, metaphorically, or maybe, in the Middle-earth context, "actually," Udûn equals Hell. (Index Vol. X)

I guess the "Flame of Udûn" would work out as The Hellfires. I've never seen any passage that connected these Flames of Udûn with any kind of Secret Fire or the Flame Imperishable, so it seems to be distinct from SF and FI. Maybe Fan has a quote that might somehow connect them?

Udûn also shows up in a Third Age context as a "region of Mordor," where it is also glossed as "Hell" in the ROTK appendix of geographical places. In ROTK, large map, Udûn is shown as the mountain encircled plain just behind the Morannon.

_________________

OFF TOPIC: Of course I missed you, Fan, you must have double the number of Tolkien related books that Stormrider and I possess in tandem; you take my insufferable teasing rather well; and, occasionally, you do use footnotes! Thanks for being around whenever you can.

P.S.

RE: Fan's -- "Andorinha, do you know anything about that 'dratted' Prunesquallor over at B&N that has a remarkedly similar style to yourself? Lots of good posts that could be moved here to TR, too."

Prunesquallor, er, yes, I do know him, clever chap, but a professional "nose-tweaker." I think he was lined up as Dagor's replacement, but ear-marked for duty on other discussion lines at B&N, Herodotus etc -- but he logged himself in one night, and started answering for Dagor before the mistake in identity could be rectified. I think Dagor has indeed "died" by now, so that (unfortunately) leaves the "dratted Squallor" in charge of the B&N Tolkien material. Perhaps he'll be too busy elsewhere to provide much more than an occasional annoyance? Shan't invite him here at any hazard...

[Stormrider]

I guess I should get out my books and do some research myself once in a while. I would probably find some of the answers I pose! Thanks for looking for me.

Anyway if hellfire (Flame of Udûn) was the fire that Sauron used to forge his One Ring, then that would explain some of the evilness of it and the rest would be attributed to Sauron's own evil self that was poured into it, too. It just would not make sense for the Imperishable Flame or Secret Fire to have helped create The Ring.

OK I found Udûn and the Morannon on the map of Mordor. That is the entrance to Mordor. I was thinking Orodruin might have been inside Udûn. Perhaps the Flame of Udûn is throughout Mordor but underground and flames up in certain places. Just speculation on my part.

-----
I never did understand why the change of names all the time! Anonyminity perhaps? I like that name, Prunesquallor--rather clever. ;D

[Andorinha]

Hi, Stormrider!

RE your: "Anyway if hellfire (Flame of Udûn) was the fire that Sauron used to forge his One Ring, then that would explain some of the evilness of it and the rest would be attributed to Sauron's own evil self that was poured into it, too. It just would not make sense for the Imperishable Flame or Secret Fire to have helped create The Ring." (my emphasis)

Oooo! I like this. I'm just re-reading the Return of the Shadow and finding all sorts of interesting things in it appropriate to this discussion. It appears that in the early stages of writing the sequel to The Hobbit, JRRT still had little idea of the importance of Bilbo's ring, or its nature; or how/ where/ when it was made, nor even by whom. Then he made the choice to have it be the LAST RING, the most potent of them: " 'It is the only Ring left,' said Gandalf. 'And hobbits are the only people of whom the Lord has not yet mastered anyone.' " (RotS, p. 78). At this point in the narrative, 1938-39, ALL of the rings were to have been crafted by Sauron alone, made expressly as traps to ensnare Men, Goblins, Elves and Dwarves reducing then to wraiths, supposedly under Sauron's control. But Sauron soon found that Dwarves could not be turned into wraiths at all though they could be made greedy and "evil" by the rings they had. Elves could be reduced to invisible wraiths, but apparently could not be controlled by Sauron. Only Men and Goblins could be both turned into wraiths and then mind-enslaved.

"The elves had many [rings], and there are now many elf wraiths in the world; the goblins had some [rings] and their wraiths are very evil and wholly under the command of the Lord." (RotS, p. 78) "Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths..." (RotS,p. 78)

If, JRRT had kept to this original scenario (ALL the rings being made by Sauron) the use of the Flame of Udûn -- evil in itself -- would have worked out perfectly. Each ring, forged in the Dark Fires of Hell, would be automatically corrupt and dangerous. But later, JRRT decided to have the Elves forge most of the rings, with some technical assistance from Sauron -- though, at least the Three Elven Rings would be totally made by the Elves. In this new scenario, I would expect the Elves (who made the Seven and Nine with Sauron's assistance) to baulk at using the Flame of Udûn, something they would surely recognize as Evil. At the time of the forging of the Rings by Celembrimbor and the other Elves, Sauron was still masquerading as Anatar, Lord of Gifts, pretending that he was not Evil. But if he suggested using the Udûn Fire as part of this forging, he would have been revealed. So JRRT would have to use some other mechanism for the creation of the rings, and in this case, as LOTR progressed, it seems he just dropped the use of Secret Fire and the Flame of Udûn entirely, leaving the actual process of manufacture unclear, and undefined... Perhaps he would have had the Elves using the Secret Fire to forge their rings, while the One Ring would be forged by Sauron alone, and made from the Flame of Udûn? This might then argue that there would be some sort of connection between Secret Fire and Flame of Udûn, maybe Udûn Fire would be Morgoth's corruption of the original Flame Imperishable?

_____________

There are also hints in this early version of RotS, that Goblins were not yet thought of as "Wholly Evil," and that they might be independent of Sauron to a fairly high degree (otherwise, why go to the trouble of making rings for them, rings designed to capture and control their leaders?) I get the feeling that we are dealing with the same kind of Goblins Bilbo ran into, a rough bunch, but not absolutely evil. Wonder when the Goblins get demoted to Orc status, totally Evil, and controlled by Sauron?