Intro: What Are The Important Themes?

[MajahTR]

In your previous readings of LotR, what were some of the themes that were important to you? From my Intro:
The major themes have changed for me through the years. The first major theme for me at 15 years old was "Even the smallest can change the future." Last year I started reading FotR a few weeks after 9/11. As I watched the tragedy unfold over the weeks, my heart could not bear the evilness and destruction, so it sought acts of kindness and love. It was natural for me to continue in that vein with concentrating on the theme of love and friendship in the trilogy.
If you would like, we can track some of the themes and see how they are played out. This would be a group effort and we would have a thread for each theme that ran through the course of the book(s).
I see it working something like this: FotR: Tracking the Theme of Friendship (as the title of the thread) A post would be something like this: Gandalf and Bilbo have been friends for many years, but in BookI Chap1: during their argument over leaving the Ring, Bilbo almost draws his sword against his old friend. Yet, in the end, the Ring could not permanently damage their friendship. People could then add to or argue over the merits of this post.
In the end the individual theme threads will be tangled masses, but, then I hope to straighten out those tangles and create a document as a resource for everyone.
DA

[MajahTR]

I found a common theme in FotR to be suspicion.

Nobody seemed to be trustable in Middle-Earth at that time of the third age. Corruption ran amok and no one could be carefree and happy outside the Shire it seemed.

Tolkien made this image quite obvious as he often said that 'spies' were everywhere that worked for 'him' or saruman. The men of Bree considered the Rangers to be suspicious and yet they were the truest men of all.

Sam doubted Strider since he thought Strider was dangerous and might lead them into the Black Riders hands. Yet again, this suspicion was of a man who was one of the saviours of middle-earth. Aragorn saved the World you could almost say....yadda..yadda. Nonetheless suspicion was prevalent and was a major part of the FotR.

Tuor

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Good idea DA,
tracking a friendship theme among others would be very rewarding, I think. Legolas and Gimli come to mind.

Tuor,
I agree with you about the suspicion. Similarly, looks can be decieving, things are not always what they seem.
Fallohide

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True my friends, all that glitters is not gold..........

I would like to track the growth of Frodo! Not a typical hobbit to be sure, but one that loved the Shire, enjoyed hearing of Bilbo's adventures, yet wanted to remain happy and safe at home.

Not the growth by Ent draughts of course, but the emergence of a wise and almost Holy being. Yes, I said Holy, but do not loose your lunch. His transformation to me is one of the most moving parts of the tale. From a position of innocense, and humility, rose a creature in stature, far exceeding the greatness of Kings of Old, relying on good old Hobbit sense of right and wrong, and becoming the saviour of ME.

Was it his internal fight with the evil of the ring that gave him such wisdom and insight? Was it his Hobbit nature that provided the same? Frodo changed over time from someone who said, " Pity Bilbo did not slay Gollum when he had the chance", to an ethereal sprite that dreaded the killing of anyone or thing by the Scouring of the Shire.

The mental suffering that Frodo felt tears at my very heart. I cannot even concieve of someone going through an experience so terrible. And at the end, all he wanted was peace and release. I choke back tears even writing about it. How can anyone go through the terror he did and not remain unchanged?

I will track Frodo, as I track my very heart beat.....and wonder why it beats at all............

Glor

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I think I'd like to pay special attention to Sam. How did the journey affect him? How did he grow and change through his experiences?
Jerseyshore

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Merry and Pippin also grew during the course of their adventures. From simple Hobbits to leaders of their homeland. Although the movie made these two into pranksters and dimwits, the books did not. They were more down to earth simple Hobbits and long-time friends of Frodo's who had never considered roaming the world or having adventures in the book.

The events of their adventures gave them strength, character, fortitude, and brought out the bravery in them. They were able to develop themselves as leaders of the Shire and hold impressive titles with a great deal of responsibility. Would they have been able to become these upstanding examples of their community if they had remained behind in the Shire and not experienced the adventures, friendships, battles, etc. they had seen on their quest?

Stormrider

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I hope in TTT and RotK movies that PJ will show the growth and changes of Merry and Pippen, because I would find it tough to see them goof around for the entire next two films. As Stormy said they were potrayed as pranksters and dimwits in FotR, I am hoping to see the mature sides of these hobbits in the upcoming two films.
My theory for PJ casting them as pranksters and dimwits in the film is because he thought that we should see more action out of those two. Really, who here would have just wanted to see them walking around saying or doing little in FotR. Certainly, not myself. By chance, it seems that the parts cut out of the movie were the parts where Merry and Pippen cast a more important less dimwitted role(i.e, the Old Forest).

I am hoping to see the maturing and growing of these two great hobbits in the next two films.....I'll have to patient, for Dec. 18 is quite a while to go still.
Tuor

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Tuor (and Fallohide): Great theme! Not one of the most obvious ones, either! I think that would be a wonderful one to track, especially with the friendship theme since one has to get over suspicion to become friends.
Glor, Jerseyshore and Stormy: Though I don't see the growth of Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippen as themes (you'll have to convince me), they are definitely worthy to track as character development. Are you offering to do the tracking individually or would you rather do this as a (whole) group effort?

Everyone: There are plenty of themes, yet! What are some of the ones that struck you or stayed with you the longest?
DA

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OK then, how about pity and compassion? These two kind of go hand in hand. Bilbo had pity for Gollum and compassion to allow him to live. Even though Frodo made the comment to Gandalf that Bilbo should have killed him right then, Frodo shows the pity and compassion for Gollum later one. And there are many more instances of these themes throught the novels, too. But I guess we (errrr.....or I) will be tracking these themes now!

And I think we should track the character develpments of the characters, too. I would like that to be a group effort. Everyone can add things that they see to the threads. That way we won't miss anything important!

Stormrider

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One theme that seems to play a big part in the epic is the theme of Decline. It seems that few are immune to it. The Elves are declining along with their old haunts and culture. The Dwarves seem to be in decline as there is much talk about the former glory and the vastness of their ancient cities. The Old Order is declining and disappearing from the face of Middle-earth.

It may be interesting to contrast this to the apparent growth of the Shire and of modern man. We may want to analyze the reasons behind all this.

Algamesh

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i agree with Algamesh. along with the theme of the fading of the elves, and the former glory of the dwarves, the growth of the race of Men and how the earth will be theirs to govern is an important theme. in what ways are the elves giving control of the matters of Middle-earth to the men and how is this apparent in LOTR.
Shelob

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Adding on to Algy's comments about decline I have to add that their is decline in the men of westernese. We all know that up in the north the decline of the men of Arnor has left only the Rangers remaining in Eriador and their population is small. Also, far to the south, the men of Gondor are in decline, they are a disappearing folk as they mingle with lesser men plus, the morgul-armies had been diminishing their size throughout the third age right up until the grand finale in the WotR.

Also in contrast, we may say there is a vast increase in the numbers of the evil men of the south and east who add on to Sauron's massive forces.

So, we could say that men are split in the decline--increase rate at the time of FotR.

Tuor

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I think humility is a re-addressed theme throughout the tales. It's touched on regarding the unworthy Ringbearer, and reestablished in each interaction between Sam and Frodo. Seems Sam always felt himself less than Frodo (humble in the truest sense), yet rose to become as much, if not more!
Namárië,
Iarwain

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Ok, some other themes we will track are: Pity and Compassion, Decline and Humility. Very cool. A little bit later, I will set up some threads for the themes we will track.
There is still time for more. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Power or Good vs Evil. Are these themes to "overdone" to bother with?
DA

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I guess this would come under 'Decline,' but what really hit me in the gut since 9/11 was how no civilization, no matter how great, lasts forever. Impermanence. Tolkien has a way of drawing you into Middle-earth: I was truly upset that the Elves had to leave Middle-earth at the end. (I felt most pity for them, though of course everyone will have had to leave eventually.)

Since I'll be taking the B&N course, I just read 'The Hobbit' again. This time, with 9-11 having had time to sink in and become part of my psyche (?), the destruction of Esgaroth was almost physically painful. I couldn't get Ground Zero (New York City's Twin Towers) out of my mind. It was SO REAL. Some of you talked about being visual readers. I'm not -- far from it; but in my mind I had flashes of Smaug crashing down into Esgaroth, alternating with film clips of planes crashing into the Twin Towers.

This reading of LotR is going to be quite a different experience this time 'round.

Diana

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How 'bout these two old chestnuts: Free Will and Power Corrupts.

At any point, Frodo could've turned around and gone home. Gollum/Smeagol could've done the decent thing and not have snared Frodo and Sam. Or maybe not.... The Ring had had centuries to do its work on Gollum and I think he nearing the edge where he could've re-become Smeagol. But Sauron got hold of him and tortured him, pushing him back to Gollum. So close. I think he would've made it, otherwise. Well, that's for next year, I guess!

As far as power, even Gandalf refused to touch the Ring. Galadriel knew enough to refuse it, and Aragorn had the strength to overcome the Ring's power, which probably took more inner strength than it took for others to refuse it in the first place.

There're probably many more examples but that's all that comes to mind right now.

Diana

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